Trial Discussion Thread #29

[Emz73]

http://criminallawza.net/2014/04/08/the-perplexing-problem-of-proof

Look at me!!! Worked. I'll shhh now

 

[Fuskier]

You may have chosen to do that, I certainly have not.

For the reasons already stated I believe his claims of 'fear' are for show and totally bogus.

His evasiveness, lying and general demeanour leave me unable to give any credence to his claims.

His original affidavit was highly questionable in content and format, his statement at the start of the trial contradicted some of the affidavit and introduced elements which were clearly 'remembered' to counter the evidence. Finally, the performance on the stand simply confirmed that OP was making things up and lying. Why would someone who was innocent need to do that?

Add this to the five witnesses who heard Reeva Steenkamp screaming in fear for her life and I find it perplexing that anyone chooses to discount all of the above (and more which I just haven't the patience to rehash) and choose to declare OP 'innocent'.

Given that he decided to fetch his gun and deliberately shoot someone dead (regardless of who they turned out to be), precisely what do people think he is innocent of?

BBM. This is critical to the Prosecution case IMO.

 

[Viper]

I haven't seen any Oscar supporters here. I have read a few posters that believe that the legal burden of proof, without a reasonable doubt, of premeditated murder has not been demonstrated through evidence or by the prosecution as of yet.

Yes. It. Has.

Simply really. OPs defense could be plausible IF he had fired ONE bullet out of fright or fear. That could be construed as unintentional homicide, Culpable Homicide. But that is not the case. OP went on after a pause and fired three more bullets at what, to his mind, was a human being. That firing of the additional three bullets shows premeditation to kill, that is Premeditated Murder.

He can ramble on about it being an accident, not intentionally pulling the trigger, only wanting to shoot the door, blah blah blah, but none of those excuses are acceptable under the law.

 

[steveml]

To be fair, its value may have reduced slightly in recent months...!

:floorlaugh:

You're probably right.

I'm not sure whether that is current market value or an old one.

I also meant to add that although it's not a multi-million dollar house, it's still probably a luxury house when compared to many others.

I think it's generally regarded as a middle-class house for SA, but the SA posters would know better.

 

[wb180]

If we believe Dr Stipp is a credible witness, then we must apply the same belief to his testimony

When Dr Stipp was asked if he believed OP wanted Reeva to live, he replied, 'He definitely wanted her to live, yes'.

If that is all defense can get from stipp, that's not a lot haha.

 

[TrueDetective]

Many on here enjoy analyzing the details and comparing possiblilities etc. but the bottom line seems to be that any defendant that gets up and consistently calls what happening during the course of a murder a "version" tells it all. His concocted story does not really deserve any analysis as it is just a made up story after he did the unthinkable. Frankly it is not even a good story. All you have to do is look at the faces of the defense team and OP's family to know they realize he is done.

After the "Dixon Debaucle" now the pathologist who has been with the defense almost since day one refuses to testify. Who else will follow? They know this case is a guarantee loser and they don't want to be associated with it. I don't think Dixon had much to lose. This break will afford Roux some time to figure how to cut his loss and get out of this.

Frankly I don't understand the break...seems like Gerrie Nel is going on "holiday" and one of his team has another matter. Surely they knew this trial was not going to be short and I think there is more to the break but not sure what it is. Then upon return they actually want to put in some serious hours. Also the thought of OP walking free is really scary...believe me he still has his "black tallon bullets".

As Roux retools the case stay tuned for more surprises. They may be down to very few witnesses as he cannot take a chance on another Dixon...

BIB 1 maybe they just have naturally unhappy faces. Apart from Uncle Arnie - he's clearly loving it. Sort of. Comparatively anyway. Or maybe his default face just happens to settle into "slightly amused yet quizzical meercat professor"

BIB 2 we will probably not find out as it will be done behind the scenes but I have read a list of potential DT expert witnesses so it may be worth checking. I dont think we can underestimate just how brutal and public the Dixon mauling was and very few witnesses would want to experience anything close to a repeat of it so my feeling is that the DT are going to take a hit or two and be forced to completely rethink it for any hope of any type of win.

BIB 3 ha! You mean an extra 1/2 hour per day which probably won't happen anyway just because well, it probably won't. The short days and ease to which they break off early and NEVER make it up means I have very little confidence that they will suddenly change their ways. Very surprising to me because in my world, a working day lasts a lot longer than 4 hours.
A FOUR HOUR working day!!
This trial would be finished now if they had a 9 to 5 mentality.

 

[Val1]

Do you know that a well respected journalist has said that she has heard he has been having acting lessons?

http://citizen.co.za/161613/oscar-like-eugene-terreblanche-jani-allen/

I was just about to post her article...
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2014-04-15-letter-to-oscar/

 

[shane13]

As stated numerous times, the cell phone OP used went "missing" for about two weeks and it was revealed at one point(I don't recall if it was during testimony) that recordings are only kept for 7 days. Providing they were still available, then I'm pretty sure the judge received them in the data that Moller made sure she knew how to reference.

Do you have a link or anything more on the 7-day aspect.

And it seems to me that your logic is self-contradictory.

Not giving that phone to Pros for 16 days obviously had a purpose. And it was a serious crime for all those who took and gave it to the perpetrators. And there is only 1 possible purpose for holding on to it for so long.

And I have highlighted several times, that standard criminal jurisprudence is to disallow into evidence any item that does not have 100% chain of custody.

The 5th phone has zero chain of custody. That means any data on it should be disallowed or considered dubious and not definitve.

And we should not assume that phone's data was not interfered with.as I noted it is standard jurisprudence to assuime it was interferd with, which again is why items w.o.chain of custody are standardly disallowed.

 

[soozieqtips]

I haven't seen any Oscar supporters here. I have read a few posters that believe that the legal burden of proof, without a reasonable doubt, of premeditated murder has not been demonstrated through evidence or by the prosecution as of yet.

There are people here who have not provided a single reason that explains why they think he's innocent. Their posts mostly consist of "I'll take what OP says as the truth" for example - and when asked to explain why he's lied so much on the stand, they do not explain a thing. They just move on and continue claiming OP is telling the truth. Just because you personally haven't seen any OP supporters here, does not mean there aren't any. There are. Quite a few.

 

[Hatfield]

I and some others expect that she will rule immediately on the gun charges, likely the same day. It may take weeks for her verdict on the murder charge, but OP will be in custody and working his way through introduction in to the state prison in Pretoria.

Thanks to you and others who helped answer my questions. Thank you.

 

[Fuskier]

Round up of the week which I thought was interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8jrG08YJcY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbKeIrZNgHE

FYI The legal panel in one of the above clips agreed that the time Reeva was shot was around 3.17am.

 

[Hatfield]

BIB 1 maybe they just have naturally unhappy faces. Apart from Uncle Arnie - he's clearly loving it. Sort of. Comparatively anyway. Or maybe his default face just happens to settle into "slightly amused yet quizzical meercat professor"

BIB 2 we will probably not find out as it will be done behind the scenes but I have read a list of potential DT expert witnesses so it may be worth checking. I dont think we can underestimate just how brutal and public the Dixon mauling was and very few witnesses would want to experience anything close to a repeat of it so my feeling is that the DT are going to take a hit or two and be forced to completely rethink it for any hope of any type of win.

BIB 3 ha! You mean an extra 1/2 hour per day which probably won't happen anyway just because well, it probably won't. The short days and ease to which they break off early and NEVER make it up means I have very little confidence that they will suddenly change their ways. Very surprising to me because in my world, a working day lasts a lot longer than 4 hours.
A FOUR HOUR working day!!
This trial would be finished now if they had a 9 to 5 mentality.

I wish US would change to more Eastern ways. Like I would love a "Time for Tea" break every day and all the vacation days that some countries get.

Our work day would be like this:

Arrive to work. Get coffee. Open desk drawer and pull out folder. Somone knocks on door. "Hey want to get some donuts?" Sure lets go. Arrive back with donuts for everyone. Eat donuts. Open folder. knock on door. "Hey do you have plans for lunch?" Get on phone and make reserveations for lunch. Read folder. Leave office and get friend to go to lunch reservation early. Arrive back late from lunch. Read next paragraph in folder. Knock on door. "Hey, its time for tea". Get up and get tea. Go back to office read final paragraph. Leave office to beat traffic home.

Call into office to say you need to use 1 of your vacation days because its along weekend coming up due to another "holiday".

Arrive back to work 5 days later.

RINSE+REPEAT

Tea anyone?

ETA: I know I am exaggerating badly but I think France or Spain or somewhere gets a huge amount of vacation time that I would love to get. There were protests over it and stuff.

 

[Val1]

I remember one of the witnesses [I think it was the Johnsons] quickly came to the conclusion that it was a home invasion and the family was being murdered and they were next.

Wherever did they come up with that conclusion if it were not a reasonable one given the nature of crime in SA?

Oscar was not the only one who was paranoid.

They said why, because they heard a woman screaming and a man shouting for help. Start at 3:55.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dFZA03eu9NM

 

[TrueDetective]

The home is far from a multi-million dollar property. Multi-million refers to SA rand, the house is about £277K in my currency (GBP)

Yep. But if a house on that scale was in the UK it would probably be a good £1m depending where it was.

 

[vansleuths]

Unless I missed it when OP was being cross examined, why do you think the PT never introduced the jeans that were found on the ground outside of the bathroom window?

 

[TrueDetective]

Thank you for these posts Ben25. Very helpful IMO.

BTW the info re the OP's head injury following a boating accident, that he was in a coma and required facial reconstruction is significant. Did OP sustain a brain injury? Was there neuropsychological testing done following the boating accident? If OP sustained some permanent brain injury, this could be a 'contributing factor' yet unexplored. It may possibly have bearing upon his performance in the cross examination and other implications for his cognitive/emotional functioning and capacity in dealing with difficulties i.e. rage.
My opinion only.

I thinks it's entirely possible that it's a contributing factor.
Having just had a very recent head injury myself I can fully attest to the concerns about effect on brain function / personality and any short/long terms implications. It certainly does not do the old noggin any good at all.
Carrots, sausages.

 

[jassy writer]

You're probably right.

I'm not sure whether that is current market value or an old one.

I also meant to add that although it's not a multi-million dollar house, it's still probably a luxury house when compared to many others.

I think it's generally regarded as a middle-class house for SA, but the SA posters would know better.

No, definitely upmarket for SA.

The houses in these luxury secure estates are always upmarket - have to be built to a certain size/square metreage, have to be double storey (usually), and have to be of a certain standard - approved by the body corporate before building starts so as not to lower the tone of the estate!

So although the plots are not usually super-large, the house takes up most of the ground because it is large and fancy, and then you get a smallish garden, swimming pool, garages etc.

Middle class housing in SA would probably be a smallish stand-alone house in a suburb, not in a secure estate, or else a "flat" or townhouse in a "reasonably secure" electric fenced complex.

 

[patCee]

Do you have a link or anything more on the 7-day aspect.

And it seems to me that your logic is self-contradictory.

Not giving that phone to Pros for 16 days obviously had a purpose. And it was a serious crime for all those who took and gave it to the perpetrators. And there is only 1 possible purpose for holding on to it for so long.

And I have highlighted several times, that standard criminal jurisprudence is to disallow into evidence any item that does not have 100% chain of custody.

The 5th phone has zero chain of custody. That means any data on it should be disallowed or considered dubious and not definitve.

And we should not assume that phone's data was not interfered with.as I noted it is standard jurisprudence to assuime it was interferd with, which again is why items w.o.chain of custody are standardly disallowed.

Maybe it's just me, but how important is the missing phone, really.

If RS had phoned anyone during the crucial evening/night. If she had, it would most likely be friends/family who would have come forward in any case. If she tried and a call didn't go through it would be meaningless.

Can't think of anything else that could be on the phone.:maddening:

 

[jassy writer]

Oh, one other point... land values are a bit lower in Pta than they are in the northern suburbs of Johannesburg (30 km away) and although a luxury estate, OP didn't live in a super-fashionable area.

If you put that estate into a very fashionable, sought after area of Pretoria (Waterkloof for instance) it would be worth more, and if you put the same estate into one of the very fashionable northern suburbs of Johannesburg, it would be worth even more.

 

[Hatfield]

I thinks it's entirely possible that it's a contributing factor.
Having just had a very recent head injury myself I can fully attest to the concerns about effect on brain function / personality and any short/long terms implications. It certainly does not do the old noggin any good at all.
Carrots, sausages.

good points

I never knew he had that injury.

Interesting too about the jeans outside the window. Why in the world did those get thrown out. Wonder if she threw them out to flag for help.