Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

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From Business Insider:




And then there's this from January 2012 New York Times interview and article about Oscar Pistorius:

This is one reason why I'm thinking Oscar's version is plausible. It may seem silly but Oscar doesn't seem to think like most people. Perhaps he has some sort of paranoid disorder like a personality disorder. Several stories suggest that every time he hears a noise or thinks he hears a noise he goes into a state of fearful hysteria and thinks there's an intruder in his home. Has he ever been robbed? Perhaps he has a sort of PTSD. Idk. Maybe his paranoia stretched over into his relationships, thus the fits of anger and yelling.
 
I just found this bill of additional particulars from the state. Thought y'all would find it interesting. Note that the state reports that OP was likely on his stumps when he fired the shots and was at a distance of greater than 60 cm from the bathroom door.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/208363280/Pistorius-Documents

I read that they had to change it because their own ballistics experts report he was indeed on his stumps. Don't know if this helps or hurts Oscar. Depends on the trajectory of Reeva's wounds.
 
Reading that plea explanation, it seems there was some controversy over Werwe's first statement that the State then "disavowed". I wonder why none of this was brought up at trial - or did I just miss it?
 
I read that they had to change it because their own ballistics experts report he was indeed on his stumps. Don't know if this helps or hurts Oscar. Depends on the trajectory of Reeva's wounds.

I think it helps him in the sense that it is consistent with the account he gave. If tests had shown he had his legs on, that would have been big trouble for him.
 
I think it helps him in the sense that it is consistent with the account he gave. If tests had shown he had his legs on, that would have been big trouble for him.

Yes, this true. It does help him in that sense. But it might also show that Reeva was shot in the head last depending on the bullet wounds.
 
Yes, this true. It does help him in that sense. But it might also show that Reeva was shot in the head last depending on the bullet wounds.

How can they determine the order of the shots, and why does it matter?
 
How can they determine the order of the shots, and why does it matter?

If she was shot in the head last then it's likely she would have screamed when she was hit with the other shots.
 
Really?

Oscar is a runner, not a crime scene tactician or logician.

if I understand your query there, you are saying that Oscar hires a lawyer on the basis that this particular lawyer is a crime scene tactitian or logician??

There is no reason whatsoever to assume that Roux is any or either of these things.. he is a practioner of the law.

Oscar is a lot more than merely a runner.. he is the perpetrator of a shooting that killed a woman in his own home , in his own bathroom/toilet , this same woman being one who was sharing his bed not more than a minute beforehand..Oscar himself is the expert, and the only expert on how this happened.. I happen to think he isnt telling the truth about it, but it is a certain fact, that Oscar knows exactly how Reeva came to be dead on the tiles. Various forensic procedures will exapand on how it happened.. and it will be then plain how it happened.. Why it happened will rest, to a great deal on forensic science, and the weight given to the witnesses who heard the event.. hearing and seeing the event seem , from Roux's angle, under Oscars instruction , are two completely and irreconcilable matters.

So Oscar just isnt a runner.

Oscar is his own main witness.. Roux isnt. Roux acts under Oscars instructions as to what went on that night.. Roux wasnt there.. whatever angle Roux tells the court is entirely and absolutely under the instructions he has received from his client.

Oscar hasnt hired Roux for his ( as yet undemonstrated skills ) crime scene tactics.

I am concerned that Oscar isnt getting the best representation , actually.

So far, the only alternative explanation Roux has given ( under Oscars instruction) is the witnesses, each witness EVERY witness, one after the other, is mistaken.

One witness, maybe. .but 7?? Seven witness in a row, all mistaken?? Roux has, so far, promised evidence of Oscars capacity to scream like a woman in extreme distress, not just any woman but the SAME woman the witness heard screaming.. That and some email Sam sent is all that Roux has promised to lay out on the table in Oscars defence.

Frankly. this I doubt he can produce. However, he asserted to a witness that he had tests done, and the results of this test would be put before the court. Should he , by golly. produce an Oscar womanish scream, the original witness who heard the two voices will be called back to the stand to give his/her estimation of the relativity of Oscars scream and what he/she heard.. will they match?? Because they have to match.. not just any old scream will do.


lets see.
 
if I understand your query there, you are saying that Oscar hires a lawyer on the basis that this particular lawyer is a crime scene tactitian or logician??

There is no reason whatsoever to assume that Roux is any or either of these things.. he is a practioner of the law.

Oscar is a lot more than merely a runner.. he is the perpetrator of a shooting that killed a woman in his own home , in his own bathroom/toilet , this same woman being one who was sharing his bed not more than a minute beforehand..Oscar himself is the expert, and the only expert on how this happened.. I happen to think he isnt telling the truth about it, but it is a certain fact, that Oscar knows exactly how Reeva came to be dead on the tiles. Various forensic procedures will exapand on how it happened.. and it will be then plain how it happened.. Why it happened will rest, to a great deal on forensic science, and the weight given to the witnesses who heard the event.. hearing and seeing the event seem , from Roux's angle, under Oscars instruction , are two completely and irreconcilable matters.

So Oscar just isnt a runner.

Oscar is his own main witness.. Roux isnt. Roux acts under Oscars instructions as to what went on that night.. Roux wasnt there.. whatever angle Roux tells the court is entirely and absolutely under the instructions he has received from his client.

Oscar hasnt hired Roux for his ( as yet undemonstrated skills ) crime scene tactics.

I am concerned that Oscar isnt getting the best representation , actually.

So far, the only alternative explanation Roux has given ( under Oscars instruction) is the witnesses, each witness EVERY witness, one after the other, is mistaken.

One witness, maybe. .but 7?? Seven witness in a row, all mistaken?? Roux has, so far, promised evidence of Oscars capacity to scream like a woman in extreme distress, not just any woman but the SAME woman the witness heard screaming.. That and some email Sam sent is all that Roux has promised to lay out on the table in Oscars defence.

Frankly. this I doubt he can produce. However, he asserted to a witness that he had tests done, and the results of this test would be put before the court. Should he , by golly. produce an Oscar womanish scream, the original witness who heard the two voices will be called back to the stand to give his/her estimation of the relativity of Oscars scream and what he/she heard.. will they match?? Because they have to match.. not just any old scream will do.


lets see.

Your 2 lengthy posts--so different in tone from all your other posts--were fascinating. But I alrady knew the official surface legal stuff. thanks.

I merely posit logical hypothetical possibilities here. Some that many likely ponder on, but may not ask.

Oscar is a runner.
Indeed, from numerous girlfriends and others, and other accidents and incidents, Oscar may often be in altered (and not very logical) states. We see all his crying, and he may have been in shock or certainly great stress from just after he shot Reeva. [And indeed before which may be why he did it.]

Even under ideal conditions, he is no logician or legal expert. If his BH affidavit was a description of what really happened (which is still possible) then I can see it coming from Oscar.

If the afidavit is all clever fiction, all I say is to repeat

Oscar is a runner. He is not a crime scene logician.

Have a nice weekend. Take care.
 
And why would that matter?

If this doesnt matter, then it is irrelevant that witnesses heard screaming and arguing before the first shot was fired.. it is also irrelevant that a witness heard 2 voices , a man and a womans screaming DURING the sequence of shots fired..

If these witnesses testimony doesnt matter, then Oscar is home free.. but, like a lot of things in life, their testimony does matter..

Unless Oscar can produce empirical evidence, that is evidence that is not merely his say so, that the witnesses are collaborating, lying, and creating a scenario completely out of the vacancy of their own heads.. ( and it would be odd for Dr Stipp, for example, to do this, since he went straight over to the location of the affray.. one hardly does this on a whim.)

He heard something that compelled him to put himself in the firing line then, failing another witness appearing who says , say, that Oscar was at the time of the shooting on the phone with him, records available, discussing a trainng procedure.. ( at 3.17am) . or.. purchasing another gun online, or.. was seen by an independant witness mowing the lawn at night at that time..the order of the shots is crucial.

If screaming was heard after the first shot was heard, a womans scream, then Reeva, clearly and plainly wasnt dead yet. Dying, yes, thats unarguable.. but not dead yet. Its Roux opinion, under Oscars instruction, that no one can scream after the head shot. .... so.. if the head shot is first.. who screamed? if the head shot is last, it was Reeva screaming.. she was, after all is said and done, the actual person shot to death that night.

Oscar doesnt say he screamed during the firing, does he.. no.. he yelled get out get out, then fired.. So ... either the witness has made a mistake, or Oscar is lying.. no other alternative here at all.
 
I would think that Roux.. under Oscars instruction, would also have to produce two OTHER people in very very proximity to Oscars house, who were going at it hammer and tongs, screaming, howling , wailing at EXACTLY THE SAME TIME as the witnesses heard it.. two people with very very similiar voices , accents, emotional pitch, and synchronised screaming..

big ask.. dont you think??
 
Timeline from phone calls - please add additional information if it is known:
  • 2:00 a.m. - Werwe heard what sounded like a woman's voice on one side of an argument

  • 2:20 a.m. - Security check at Oscar's house; everything was normal

  • 3:00 - 3:15 a.m. -Shtipp was woken up by 3 "shots" and got up and went to balcony to see where it was coming from

  • 3:00 - 3:17 a.m. - Stipp reports he heard a woman "screaming or yelling" 2 or 3 times

  • 3:15 a.m. - Burger and Johnson awoke to the sounds of loud screams they identified as coming from a female

  • 3:15- 3:16 a.m. - Burger and Johnson report they heard yelling "help, help, help"

  • 3:17 a.m. - Stipp heard "2 or 3" additional "shots"

  • 3:17 a.m. Burger and Johnson heard "3 or 4" sounds they believe to be gunshots

  • After 3:17 a.m. - Werwe heard "loud crying" that she initially thought was a woman, but her husband identified the voice as Oscar Pistorius

  • 3:20 a.m. - Oscar calls Netcare and reports that they advised him to take Reeva to the hospital and not wait for the ambulance

  • 3:21 a.m. - Oscar calls security - only crying is heard

  • 3:27 a.m. - Stipp calls security for the second time and then hears Oscar screaming "help, help, help" (?? - IMO it's unclear if this was an intentional call and whether Stipp actually heard Oscar screaming after his 3:17 call to security -otherwise, this seems like an impossibility)

  • 3:28 a.m. Both Stander and Stipp are at Oscar's house; Stander calls ambulance from Stipp's phone
Unknowns - please fill in the info if you know:

1. What time was the call to security when Oscar said "Security, everything is fine"

2. Did Werwe report hearing gunshots or "help, help, help" and if so did she give a time?



Wow- you rock! Putting you on the All*Star Team with Salinger.

THE MEGA SLEUTHS! (smile)
 
,,, And Trooper too!

So when does the clock go forward - I guess 24 hours from now Day 6 will begin,do we know who will be taking the stand?

Have we ever recovered a pic of the Girlfriend, Samantha taylor was it?
 
This is one reason why I'm thinking Oscar's version is plausible. It may seem silly but Oscar doesn't seem to think like most people. Perhaps he has some sort of paranoid disorder like a personality disorder. Several stories suggest that every time he hears a noise or thinks he hears a noise he goes into a state of fearful hysteria and thinks there's an intruder in his home. Has he ever been robbed? Perhaps he has a sort of PTSD. Idk. Maybe his paranoia stretched over into his relationships, thus the fits of anger and yelling.

He's insane,,, but I see your point - no doubt Roux will drive this home for hours on end until someone stops him.

But, think about it, this kid is gun happy... the thought of killing someone HAS, whether we want to believe it or not, crossed his mind. He is basically PLOTTING - knowing that when that day comes... when he IS ABLE TO SHOOT HIS GUN LIKE Ranger ****&&^#ing RICK, that he will always just be able to point back to this.... SEE!! SEE!! Look at my twitter!!! I EVEN posted about it!!!


Oh! Why didn't you just say that OScar! This makes you not guilty! You can shoot anyone ya want.... as long as we know that you think they are robbbers.

Whew!


The G
 
Mr Roux is in no position to make up a whole case, a complicated case out of thin air..

no lawyer can, or would. . in consultation with Oscar, the defendant, and his employer, he has to present to the court the bones and flesh of the case the State has made against Oscar, ( Rouxs employer) and dispute it. .. Any and all theory's, disputation of evidence given, alternative scenarious, are ALL and ENTIRELY the responsibility of Oscar.. its Oscars case.. it isnt Rouxs' case , he is merely the presenter. Roux walks away and on to his next employer ( client) the moment this case ends.

He is, in the vernacular, Oscars barking dog.. other wise Oscar would be up there barking. Why hire a barking dog and do the barking yourself? no one does. He barks , as is his profession, a very worthy one, under Oscars instruction.
 
The tweet was referred to in the first part of this thread, and again in an article I read online. Most people don't go on the offensive at the sound of a washing machine but he apparently does, according to his tweet. That suggest to me that OP thinks differently to me, so I can accept the possibility that his reactions upon hearing a noise in the bathroom during the night might differ to mine. My circumstances are also different.


**** Anyone who carries a gun on him like OS or Fat Stuff, I mean, Zimmerman, they KNOW - it kills people.

WHat OP has done here is establish a safety zone for himself... think about if you were him, and you left that tweet... and walked away from the PC... lifted your gun from the dresser, and went out to walk the dogs.

Now, you smile , and you reflect...


"OK, this is good. Now, if I shoot someone... I can always rely upon living in a world where intruders exist....people will see this aged tweetm and I will be covered."

This guy is out of his fu&^&%^&*ing mind!! SILVERWOODS is a SAFETY Compound to the mAX!!! Have you seen the bloody security fence!!! ZZZzzzzap!!!! How about the blockade entrance? Access by fingerprint! He is off... there's no intruder raiding his bathroom.

HYPOTHETICAL
Guilty killer.

Love ya, my wisdom carriers...


The G
 
One of the reasons the state put up the witness Kevin Larena.. * a darling * was to show that Oscar is happy to fire a gun when NOT angry.. merely at whim.. but not happy to take responsibility for it when confronted with the act of it.

Ditto Samantha.. her testimony tells us Oscar fired a gun out of spite and anger at being directed by the police who noticed the gun in the back seat after pulling Darrin up for speeding.

so the state has provided witnesses as to Oscars varied reasons when he feels like pulling that trigger.. not all connected with him feeling threatened by a fierce and murderous intruder in the dark of night.

I find it hard to believe that Oscar was 'feeling threatened' by the delivery of Kevins plate of Pasta, in the restaurant at Friday lunchtime.. unless he has an undiagnosed fear of waiters bearing Pasta.
 
Your 2 lengthy posts--so different in tone from all your other posts--were fascinating. But I alrady knew the official surface legal stuff. thanks.

I merely posit logical hypothetical possibilities here. Some that many likely ponder on, but may not ask.

Oscar is a runner.
Indeed, from numerous girlfriends and others, and other accidents and incidents, Oscar may often be in altered (and not very logical) states. We see all his crying, and he may have been in shock or certainly great stress from just after he shot Reeva. [And indeed before which may be why he did it.]

Even under ideal conditions, he is no logician or legal expert. If his BH affidavit was a description of what really happened (which is still possible) then I can see it coming from Oscar.

If the afidavit is all clever fiction, all I say is to repeat

Oscar is a runner. He is not a crime scene logician.

Have a nice weekend. Take care.

Truly fascinatng.
A simple, logical and obvious question many have pondered or realized was possible or probable, then 3 lengthy repeated statements.

One can see why Shakespeare is so touted in this world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks
 
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