Trial Discussion Thread #30

[Karmady]

Liesbeth, I believe, posted the legal definition of a reasonable person and it isn't and cannot be mitigated by any disability - I personally believe any brain injury, which is rumour at this point - would likely be included. This isn't an American courtroom - by law there is very little room for mitigation.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

putative private (self) defense has a subjective component. Someone just posted a very recent SA case that sets it out really simply. The court only has to reasonably believe that Oscar did believe he was in dire danger from an intruder -- whether or not his belief was objectively reasonable. Very different from American law. I highly recommend that decision to everyone since, imo, it'll go a long way to putting posters on the same page about what needs to be proven. It's within the last couple of pages.

jmo

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

The trial is more than half way finished, and the trial has gone very badly for OP. So why do you still believe that OP will go free on a suspended sentence? And I ask that you look at the trial as a whole before you send me a link to some obscure case that went much differently than OPs is going right now.

The closest Oscar is going to get to 'suspended' anything will be his suspension from the IAAF endorsed competitions.

In this case, a suspended sentence is not possible IMHO. Not considering relevant SA case law and sentencing.

 

[shane13]

The closest Oscar is going to get to 'suspended' anything will be his suspension from the IAAF endorsed competitions.

In this case, a suspended sentence is not possible IMHO. Not considering relevant SA case law and sentencing.

Even if found guilty (which I wouldn't bet on for deep reasons), will he not be out on bail as Appeals wind through for years?

 

[TrueDetective]

Why what?

Why a serious head injury? Any kind of severe blow to the head like that causes the brain to whipsaw inside the skull, bouncing against the skull walls.

Why relevant to this trial? Brain injuries affect behavior, including impulsivity.

Molly you are using an event/possible reason that even the defence hasn't used.
Why would you even do that?

It's like me saying that the reason OP shot RS is because SHE threatened him with an air rifle.. When nobody is saying that and it's not the state's case - so why suggest it.

 

[sorrell skye]

My opinions on Oscar were formed quite some time before the shooting.

A powder keg, that at some time would blow.

The months and years pre the London Olympics, the time during the Games and most importantly the months after sketched a picture of a man on the edge. A man not at peace with his world and his own humanity.

A man on a mission.

I was not in the least shocked or surprised waking up to the news he had shot someone. Reeva (RIP) was the unfortunate victim, but I have no doubt if not her someone else would have died at his hands.

His speeding.....his firearm obsession....his narcissism.........

A recipe for disaster. Years in the making.

BBM

I have no doubt of this either.

Based on everything I've read about him in the media this past year, combined with the information that has been revealed during trial, I think it was only a matter of time before someone died at his hands.

A recipe for disaster, indeed.

 

[BritsKate]

Here's a whole list of sports figures convicted for varying crimes:
List of professional sportspeople convicted of crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Trooper]

Indeed! His comment re: Dr Stipp quite simply confirmed just how 'high up' he reckons he sits.
(Along with him chipping in out of turn in the High court re: his door. Barry apparently had hard and stern words with him after that - but with little effect. In Oscar's world, he and he alone is judge)

wasn't that comment astounding !!... lets set the scene... Oscar is kneeling on the hallway, the dead and mangled body of Reeva between his legs , his fingers clenched in her teeth in her death spasm, his other hand on her shattered groin.. he has just shot four times at her... hark! a knock on the door... a stranger.. 'Im a doctor, can I help?'....

and Oscar has the time and the mindset to form the impression , as this stranger extracts his fingers from a dead womans throat, freeing him from his captivity, that this stranger is 'overwhelmed'.......'doesn't know what he's doing'...

there is something very very wrong here.. that Oscar could find the time to come to this conclusion at that time in that situation.. something very very off and beyond strange..

 

[TrueDetective]

In OP's own version of events... Is there an indication of how much time could have elapsed between the shooting and the start of the cricket bat? From the neighbors testimony, it would seem like 15 minutes - 3:00am for the shots and 3:15am for the bats (using op's version). Fifteen minutes seems a long time to shout on balcony, briefly look for RS, and retrieve the bat. Is he claiming that he was doing other things too?
Has the defense indicated a timeline that was less then 15 minutes between these 2 events ?

I think he reckoned 5 minutes but the DT's position on this has yet to be fully explained. This will be discussed in testimony and closing arguments IMO

 

[Jim Kirk]

Is tomorrow a bank holiday as well in South Africa?

I presume the trial resumes on Tuesday?

 

[wb180]

wow. Too bad Reeva didn't know this.

Well, you know the saying about how girls love bad boys

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Dr. Stipp if I recall, thought it was less than 7 minutes. Stipp heard the shots, then the screams, then he went to call security. While on the phone with security, he hears the second set of shots.

If I remember rightly
I don't believe Dr Stipp ever said he checked on the clock . His wife however was adamant even under stiff cross exam 3.02 and 3.17 with her clock being 3 to 4 minutes fast .
She was so adamant that she corrected Roux when he tried to knock a couple of minutes off it .

 

[TrueDetective]

Do I detect a hint of bias against the defendant?

Who would you compare him to in the States?

Confused.com

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Even if found guilty (which I wouldn't bet on for deep reasons), will he not be out on bail as Appeals wind through for years?

The appeals process is lengthy. Very lengthy.

However, if found guilty of murder (even dolus eventualis) bail can be revoked, and so it should be.

However.............

 

[Lyra500]

BBM

I have no doubt of this either.

Based on everything I've read about him in the media this past year, combined with the information that has been revealed during trial, I think it was only a matter of time before someone died at his hands.

A recipe for disaster, indeed.

I am amazed that this whole thing does not appear to have diminished his sense of entitlement and superiority one iota. You would think something like this would be a real wake-up call.

If he does walk due to a putative self-defence ruling I think that will be such a travesty.

 

[Viper]

putative private (self) defense has a subjective component. Someone just posted a very recent SA case that sets it out really simply. The court only has to reasonably believe that Oscar did believe he was in dire danger from an intruder -- whether or not his belief was objectively reasonable. Very different from American law. I highly recommend that decision to everyone since, imo, it'll go a long way to putting posters on the same page about what needs to be proven. It's within the last couple of pages.

jmo

BIB. I saw that conversation. It was limited, one sided, biased in favor of OP; and it ignored or denied the existence of the other requirements. From the link below:

Quote:
Pistorius therefore has to convince the court that his vulnerability, as a disabled person living in South Africa, genuinely led him to believe his life was in danger from an intruder hiding behind a closed toilet door. The court must further be convinced that his response – pumping four bullets through the door – was reasonable in the circumstances

http://theconversation.com/the-pistorius-defence-and-the-fear-that-grips-white-south-africa-25559

 

[Gbtaketwo]

wasn't that comment astounding !!... lets set the scene... Oscar is kneeling on the hallway, the dead and mangled body of Reeva between his legs , his fingers clenched in her teeth in her death spasm, his other hand on her shattered groin.. he has just shot four times at her... hark! a knock on the door... a stranger.. 'Im a doctor, can I help?'....

and Oscar has the time and the mindset to form the impression , as this stranger extracts his fingers from a dead womans throat, freeing him from his captivity, that this stranger is 'overwhelmed'.......'doesn't know what he's doing'...

there is something very very wrong here.. that Oscar could find the time to come to this conclusion at that time in that situation.. something very very off and beyond strange..

Yes astounding that he considered himself to be the superior knowledge yet still found the time to pop upstairs on his own . If he was so convinced Stipp's was not very competent why didn't he carry on his own first aid . IMO
He knew nothing could be done probably even before DR stipp's arrived .

 

[james83]

First double taps, then all of a sudden bullets in rapid succession, but definitely not tailoring there evidence, o.k then.

 

[TrueDetective]

wasn't that comment astounding !!... lets set the scene... Oscar is kneeling on the hallway, the dead and mangled body of Reeva between his legs , his fingers clenched in her teeth in her death spasm, his other hand on her shattered groin.. he has just shot four times at her... hark! a knock on the door... a stranger.. 'Im a doctor, can I help?'....

and Oscar has the time and the mindset to form the impression , as this stranger extracts his fingers from a dead womans throat, freeing him from his captivity, that this stranger is 'overwhelmed'.......'doesn't know what he's doing'...

there is something very very wrong here.. that Oscar could find the time to come to this conclusion at that time in that situation.. something very very off and beyond strange..

Bizarre alright.
He killed her and didn't even call an ambulance first!

He didn't want Stipp to even be there (a total stranger) and has not forgotten.

 

[Karmady]

BIB. I saw that conversation. It was limited, one sided, biased in favor of OP; and it ignored or denied the existence of the other requirements. From the link below:

Quote:
Pistorius therefore has to convince the court that his vulnerability, as a disabled person living in South Africa, genuinely led him to believe his life was in danger from an intruder hiding behind a closed toilet door. The court must further be convinced that his response – pumping four bullets through the door – was reasonable in the circumstances

http://theconversation.com/the-pistorius-defence-and-the-fear-that-grips-white-south-africa-25559

Sorry, but I don't know what you're talking about. I was talking about the case someone posted here a little while ago and what it said.

 

[TrueDetective]

Is tomorrow a bank holiday as well in South Africa?

I presume the trial resumes on Tuesday?

Enterprise to Captain... trial has been adjourned until Monday 5th May