Trial Discussion Thread #31

[lithgow1]

Not only is this an excellent point, Lithgow, but it applies separately to each of the four shots. In other words, even if - by a violent stretch of the imagination - OP believed he was acting in necessary self-defence by firing at an unidentified human being once, how could he have believed he was still acting in necessary self-defence when he fired for the last time, knowing he had already hit his victim with three of those hollow-nosed bullets manufactured to be lethal ?

Thanks - I didn't know that but it seems it would make it even worse for him. So in other words, had he fired once and then stopped the court would see that as a 'lesser' action than letting off four shots?

 

[beach]

Okay, here is the Master Plan if you guys want to take a minute and psych up!


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242115


Will be opening the first discussion thread shortly.

 

[patCee]

Are we quite certain, under South African law, that there is not and cannot be a shift in burden when a defendant has admitted the killing? The following is based on UK law, as an example:

"When it has been proved that one person's death has been caused by another, there is a prima facie presumption of law that the act of the person causing the death is murder, unless the contrary appears from the evidence either for the prosecution or for the defence. The onus is upon such person when accused to show that his act did not amount to murder."

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

Yes, and IIRC that in SA, OP had no choice but to testify for the same reason i.e. he had to give evidence himself that he killed in self defense.

 

[Carmelita]

What offence are you referring to that must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? Most commentators say they cannot see how he will escape the lesser charge of culpable homicide. So I guess it's the murder charge you mean by 'beyond reasonable doubt', in which case it reallly seems to come down to whether or not the court accepts his reasons as to why he chose to act as he did. Apologies in advance if I misunderstood what you were saying.

Culpable Homicide or premeditated murder must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't think that PM has been proven, CH I tend to lean that it has been proven. I don't know how the judge can rule that firing into the toilet when the door was closed is not CH unless she upholds Oscar's claim that he believed beyond all doubt that the noise he heard in the bathroom meant that an intruder was about to enter further into Oscar's home and that Oscar felt he and Reeva were in deadly danger. Even then it seems the letter of the law would allow for a CH guilty verdict as a reasonable person would not have responded in the manner which led Oscar to that vital moment that put Oscar in the position of "pulling the trigger."

Will the judge and/or her assessors, a defense attorney and an academic, (which I hope the importance of their histories is not lost on people) decide that the extenuating circumstances of this case in particular qualify Oscar for a not guilty on the CH defense, I just don't know.


I think it is going to be a more complicated ruling for the judge to make than most people believe.

 

[Viper]

Viper, I don't know if he did or not use this equipment ur reach that finding, but if he is competent at his job he must have made the analysis and foun the right answer. A trained forensic investigator specializing in blood and properly equipped can usually tell for each drop or stain of blood the angle, velocity and any other relevant parameters and even you or I can tell whether it was arterial blood.
Exasperating to think that so much potentially useful information is withheld from such skilful sleuths as we!

BIB. Indeed! LOL!!!

Here is my point, lets just say that Nest did scientifically, without a doubt, and without any question whatsoever determine that the blood over the bed, over the railing, and on the staircase wall was arterial spurt. And for the blood to be arterial spurt Reeva's heart had to be beating, no doubts or questions about it, for this post anyway. Then why on earth would Nest very casually and comfortably concede to Mr. Roux that the blood over the bed may not have been from arterial spurting, and go on to say it could also have been from blood cast off of OPs hands. That does not make sense, and goes against Nest using scientific principles, calculations, observations, and forensic computer programs to definitively make any determination about arterial spurting that is incontrovertible. It opens the door to question Nest's opinions about what was the cause of the blood over the railing and on the staircase wall.

 

[Nausicaa]

Thanks - I didn't know that but it seems it would make it even worse for him. So in other words, had he fired once and then stopped the court would see that as a 'lesser' action than letting off four shots?

I would say that there were four actions - the four known shots - any or all of which might be judged by the court to be, beyond reasonable doubt, an act of murder.
The more times he fires, the weaker the self-defence justification becomes. Hence it is perfectly possible for the court to judge that a single shot could be self-defence, or even three practically simultaneous shots, while yet judging that murder was committed by the fact of a fourth shot with at least a slight pause somewhere in the firing.
I am not saying the court will make either of those judgements. It could also judge that even the first shot was an act of murder, since there was no sign that the putative and imaginary intruder posed any threat to his life. Or it could judge, as OP wants it to, that he had no time to make a new deliberate act of will between the first shot and the last and that all shots together comprise a single act of legitimate defence.
What I think the court is most unlikely to accept is OP's new line that he doesn't need a self-defence motive as his panic temporarily deprived him of the power to make any ordinary responsible decision - hence the gun effectively fired itself. The reason I predict the court will reject this is not merely the opposing evidence, such as his stated intention of avoiding ricochet, but also that such a precedent would effectively create a free-for-all in which we can all murder one another and then claim we had been momentarily transformed into zombies.

 

[Emz73]

Whatever the number was, Mangena said it was consistent with OP's account and set up his laser beam machine in that location.

I don't think its a "whatever" the number was thing. OP not going to say he was in a different place because then it would look like he was lying. The news experts show him slightly to the right and not against a wall and Saying this was Mangenas opinion. He was still in a line of fire.

 

[Nausicaa]

[...]

Here is my point, lets just say that Nest did scientifically, without a doubt, and without any question whatsoever determine that the blood over the bed, over the railing, and on the staircase wall was arterial spurt. And for the blood to be arterial spurt Reeva's heart had to be beating, no doubts or questions about it, for this post anyway. Then why on earth would Nest very casually and comfortably concede to Mr. Roux that the blood over the bed may not have been from arterial spurting, and go on to say it could also have been from blood cast off of OPs hands. That does not make sense, and goes against Nest using scientific principles, calculations, observations, and forensic computer programs to definitively make any determination about arterial spurting that is incontrovertible. It opens the door to question Nest's opinions about what was the cause of the blood over the railing and on the staircase wall.

I can only agree 100%. The forensics in this enquiry appear to have been in some respects sadly deficient. The fact that some forensic findings have not been made public is not much consolation either if they may turn out to be questionable.

 

[Carmelita]

Are we quite certain, under South African law, that there is not and cannot be a shift in burden when a defendant has admitted the killing? The following is based on UK law, as an example:

"When it has been proved that one person's death has been caused by another, there is a prima facie presumption of law that the act of the person causing the death is murder, unless the contrary appears from the evidence either for the prosecution or for the defence. The onus is upon such person when accused to show that his act did not amount to murder."

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

From my understanding (and I am just a wee little lay person) I believe for all intensive purposes,"the burden of proof" is addressed in the defense's plea, Oscar has pleaded Not guilty by reason of putative defense.

It is of course in Oscar's best interest to prove to the best of his ability, putative defense, but at the end of the day the prosecutor has to disprove Oscar's defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

Ack! I hope that makes sense.

 

[Cherwell]

On the timing, yes I agree, that's certainly one of the things (along with the stomach contents) that bothers me about the defence case. I must admit I haven't looked at it in much detail yet, except what I've read on here. So here are a couple of questions for anyone who might know: firstly, doesn't OP HAVE to be wrong about Reeva breathing when he found her, regardless of whether the shots came first or second? If she only took two or three breaths, then surely she can't have been breathing by the time he got to her, even if it only took, say, 30 seconds. Second, and in some ways a similar question, isn't it also very likely her heart stopped beating before she was taken downstairs?

If the above points are correct (i.e. Reeva stopped breathing and her heart stopped beating while she was still in the bathroom), is there still a problem for the defence about how long Reeva was alive after the shots?

I'm not a medical professional, so this may be a stupid question.

Could Reeva's "two or three breaths" (as per Prof. Saayman) have taken longer than a few seconds? I ask because I have sat with people as they were dying, and know that final breaths can be very long drawn out.

Perhaps the medics here can advise.

 

[Karmady]

Not only is this an excellent point, Lithgow, but it applies separately to each of the four shots. In other words, even if - by a violent stretch of the imagination - OP believed he was acting in necessary self-defence by firing at an unidentified human being once, how could he have believed he was still acting in necessary self-defence when he fired for the last time, knowing he had already hit his victim with three of those hollow-nosed bullets manufactured to be lethal ?

I'm not so sure about that in light of this statement from the decision a couple of weeks ago that Capetowncrim (?) posted. I asked in the last thread whether this wasn't the same type of gun used in this case, but I don't think anyone answered. Anyone know?

From the link posted in the last thread:

According to Steyl, a Z88 9mm Parabellum expels bullets in rapid succession. Once the trigger is pressed, the pistol will fire after which the recoil operation automatically extracts, ejects and reloads the chamber until all rounds are fired.1 Thus the appellant could not have paused in between the shots to deliberately and intentionally shoot the deceased.
Thanks

 

[Harmony 2]

New thread is open. This thread will close shortly.

Trial Discussion Thread #32 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Cherwell]

there is also a blood pool of unknown quantity that fell directly into the bowl of the wc.
if her arm and head were both over this point, the blood from these two wounds could have gone directly into the bowl.
that would leave just the blood from the hip wound on the floor of the toilet.

There's been quite a bit of debate about this, but I'd assumed from the start that a lot of blood must have gone into the toilet bowl. It seems obvious from the bloodstains on the seat that her head (and probably also her arm) rested there.

 

[Nausicaa]

I'm not so sure about that in light of this statement from the decision a couple of weeks ago that Capetowncrim (?) posted. I asked in the last thread whether this wasn't the same type of gun used in this case, but I don't think anyone answered. Anyone know?

From the link posted in the last thread:

According to Steyl, a Z88 9mm Parabellum expels bullets in rapid succession. Once the trigger is pressed, the pistol will fire after which the recoil operation automatically extracts, ejects and reloads the chamber until all rounds are fired.1 Thus the appellant could not have paused in between the shots to deliberately and intentionally shoot the deceased.
Thanks

I think you were answered that this does not apply to the gun used by OP. But in any event he decides how long to squeeze for. After all, too many holes in the sunroof of your car could be inconvenient...

 

[Cherwell]

I'm not so sure about that in light of this statement from the decision a couple of weeks ago that Capetowncrim (?) posted. I asked in the last thread whether this wasn't the same type of gun used in this case, but I don't think anyone answered. Anyone know?

From the link posted in the last thread:

According to Steyl, a Z88 9mm Parabellum expels bullets in rapid succession. Once the trigger is pressed, the pistol will fire after which the recoil operation automatically extracts, ejects and reloads the chamber until all rounds are fired.1 Thus the appellant could not have paused in between the shots to deliberately and intentionally shoot the deceased.
Thanks

No, OP's was a different gun. It has been discussed but I'm not sure in which thread.

 

[whiterum]

BritsKate.... Oscar sinks or swims on this Screaming Woman.. the entire case rests upon it, and unless Roux and Oscar can eliminate this haunting sound , he is gone to hell.

I agree that Roux and Oscar have tried every damn thing that may even hint or hope at that sound of the Screaming Woman being a figment of peoples imagination, a collective mistake in hearing among strangers at the same time, a try at it being Oscar screaming, every thing that may have the slightest hope of being adjudicated as remotely possible, yet reasonable.. its the unreason of the ideas that Roux and Oscar are floating that is going to sink them 40 fathoms down. . they just cannot come up with a reasonably possible concept for that sound to be happening.

Yes god bless the witnesses they heard a woman in distress and eventually shot to death. They could have rolled over in bed and not got involved but they had a conscience which compelled them to come forward no matter what the consequences for them.

In doing so they bravely gave this screaming woman a voice, a version of what happened to her that night and IMO she will speak louder as the trial progresses, through Nel exposing the lies and the dismantling of OP's version/s from his own mouth.

Also she is speaking through her horrific injuries, through the order of the gunshots in relation to her horrific wounds, the timing of of her death through the last shot to her head, making his version so ludicrous and such an obvious lying concoction that it will be deemed null and void.

 

[Carmelita]

I'm not so sure about that in light of this statement from the decision a couple of weeks ago that Capetowncrim (?) posted. I asked in the last thread whether this wasn't the same type of gun used in this case, but I don't think anyone answered. Anyone know?

From the link posted in the last thread:

According to Steyl, a Z88 9mm Parabellum expels bullets in rapid succession. Once the trigger is pressed, the pistol will fire after which the recoil operation automatically extracts, ejects and reloads the chamber until all rounds are fired.1 Thus the appellant could not have paused in between the shots to deliberately and intentionally shoot the deceased.
Thanks

Oscar's gun is a semi automatic which means he had to pull the trigger to release each bullet.

 

[Harmony 2]

New thread is open. This thread is closed.

Trial Discussion Thread #32 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

:fence: