Trial Discussion Thread #32

[crasshopper]

Could be. However I doubt the jeans outside were OP's. Most guys are not going to wear a thin white belt with a pair of jeans. But the State never brought up whose jeans they were or why they were outside. I still have my doubts about the jeans in the bedroom belonging to Reeva.

MOO

"Boyfriend" jeans are women's jeans designed to look like your wearing your boyfriend's jeans. Who knew, huh?! My response was a little tongue in cheek though. I do agree that Nel wouldn't let it slide were they Oscar's. Could be a card he's holding close to the vest for now or not.

Certainly the jeans outside were Reeva's.

Reeva's mother thought the jeans found in the bedroom looked large for Reeva...well maybe this is the unknown thong underwear in the dryer.

Highly, highly unlikely but if the jeans aren't Reeva's and both DT and PT stipulated that they're women's jeans maybe the jeans were the cause of the fight and not coffee with her ex?

Random musings...

 

[crasshopper]

Speaking of the second shot being the missed shot, the State says that is what happened. Dixon, for the defense, says that he believes the last shot was the missed one. I don't see how that is possible since the missed shot is the one where the core of the bullet ended up in the toilet. If that missed bullet happened after Reeva was leaning over the toilet (from the arm and/or head shot) then there wouldn't be a space for the core of the bullet to go into the toilet.

MOO

GREAT point!

 

[sicknote]

The entire defence just reeks of desperation.

Trying to suggest a Dr. was lying because his curtains were closed 14 months later is simply ludicrous.

One of the South African legal guys Sky interviewed stated the DT are using their best witnesses first......

 

[steveml]

The name 'Black Talon' rather than 'hollow-point' was used by Nel because he knew that it would cause a stir, be picked up by the media, and create an early storm with public opinion. It was a good ploy, as it created the intended buzz around those who had little knowledge of guns or ammunition.

The Black Talon bullet is not an unusual bullet and does no more damage than any other hollow-point bullet. The only reason these bullets are not widely available is because Winchester haven't manufactured them under that brand name for years. They now use the name Winchester Ranger.

Nel has spent years with law enforcement agencies, and his own guys use Winchester Ranger bullets in their weapons. If you are a perpetrator and shot by law enforcement then the chances are you will be shot with a re-branded Black Talon. Not surprisingly Nel didn't mention this.

The reason these bullets are used is because they are effective. They stop an assailant, and the bullet is less likely to travel through the assailant and hit another person or cause collateral damage. Black Talon is simply a brand name.

The gun used by OP was a Taurus. How often have we heard the name mentioned by Nel? Hardly ever. Now, if the gun was called the Taurus 'Destroyer', can you imagine how quickly Nel and the media would have latched onto this?


...hope you catch my drift.

:smile:


n.b. I have attached a photograph of hollow point-bullets, as I think it's important to show how hype and media sensationalism can distort and create a misunderstanding.

Black Talon on left, Ranger on right.

Link

 

[asanque]

Great idea to look at that night from Reeva's point of view according to OP.

According to OP...

Reeva was watching OP walk around to bring in the fans. She decided to get up to pee.

She grabbed her cell phone. Maybe she grabbed the keys to the toilet door, or maybe OP left the keys on the inside of the toilet all the time. Or maybe they were on the bathroom counter.

She walked into the bathroom and opened the bathroom window, holding her phone in her hand.

She then entered the toilet. She heard OP screaming for somebody to get out of the house and OP telling her to call the police.

She immediately decided to slam the door closed and keep quiet. She locked the door and stood listening as OP approached the door screaming "Get the fvck out of my house! Get the fvck out of my house!"

She stood facing the door, not calling to OP, not attempting to dial the police, doing nothing.

Next thing she knew she heard a gun shot and immediately crumbled to the ground. Next she heard another shot as her arm almost got ripped off, then everything went black.

All that because a minute earlier she decided to get up to pee in the middle of the night.

Don't forget that somewhere in the middle of that, OP said she also actually peed in the dark as well :scared:

 

[asanque]

The one thing I am glad of in this case is that it will be decided by a judge.

With all due respect to jury trials, you normally get a few duds who have no idea about the law (even when explained in simple terms).

The end result is that you get cases such as O.J. Simpson and Casey Anthony, where confusing a jury results in an absurd result.

 

[Trooper]

The name 'Black Talon' rather than 'hollow-point' was used by Nel because he knew that it would cause a stir, be picked up by the media, and create an early storm with public opinion. It was a good ploy, as it created the intended buzz around those who had little knowledge of guns or ammunition.

The Black Talon bullet is not an unusual bullet and does no more damage than any other hollow-point bullet. The only reason these bullets are not widely available is because Winchester haven't manufactured them under that brand name for years. They now use the name Winchester Ranger.

Nel has spent years with law enforcement agencies, and his own guys use Winchester Ranger bullets in their weapons. If you are a perpetrator and shot by law enforcement then the chances are you will be shot with a re-branded Black Talon. Not surprisingly Nel didn't mention this.

The reason these bullets are used is because they are effective. They stop an assailant, and the bullet is less likely to travel through the assailant and hit another person or cause collateral damage. Black Talon is simply a brand name.

The gun used by OP was a Taurus. How often have we heard the name mentioned by Nel? Hardly ever. Now, if the gun was called the Taurus 'Destroyer', can you imagine how quickly Nel and the media would have latched onto this?


...hope you catch my drift.

:smile:


n.b. I have attached a photograph of hollow point-bullets, as I think it's important to show how hype and media sensationalism can distort and create a misunderstanding.

Black Talon on left, Ranger on right.

Link

you can call it the "Sweet Lollipop ' bullet, but this is the damage it can do...

http://you.co.za/news/warning-graphic-images-of-reevas-head-in-court/

 

[crasshopper]

Thanks, the reason I ask is because the whole issue of organ donation was raised and in those cases, don't they need to keep the organs viable by means of a respirator, liquids, etc. or the organs(heart, liver) will fail before they can be removed for transplant?

Hi Val and THANK You Jake!

Val, so sorry that was me. I brought up organ donation as an aside during a discussion of brain death, not because it applied to Reeva.

Let me also clarify again that I never said and nor was Reeva a case of brain death, but certain similarities BRIEFLY applied.

The pertinent example was of Pulling the "plug" on the brain dead, ( the ones who aren't breathing on their own and on a respirator; but whose hearts ARE continuing to beat autonomously). After the respirator and any other support is turned off, the heart keeps beating for some minutes before arresting due to lack of oxygen from no more ventilatory support and no breathing on your own. Eventually when criteria are met, the patient is then declared dead.

The topic of brain death was brought up to prove the heart can continue to beat after breathing stops, in this case the her breathing stopped as a result of a devastating injury to the brain, apparently including the area controlling breathing. The continued, likely weak or erratic, beating of her heart is indicated by the presence of arterial spurts in the bedroom and below the landing.


Since I was responsible, I couldn't leave you hanging but that is the last I am even broaching the topic of arterial spurts until further testimony from experts.

Thank you Jake for answering too!

Nite, nite

 

[steveml]

you can call it the "Sweet Lollipop ' bullet, but this is the damage it can do...

http://you.co.za/news/warning-graphic-images-of-reevas-head-in-court/

That has nothing to do with the type of bullet, any bullet can do that. It does not alter the fact that there is nothing remotely unusual about the bullets OP used. Hollow point bullets are as common in the bullet world as Nike are to trainers. I prefer to base an argument on fact, not headlines.

 

[kaos]

I'm watching from the beginning as I missed a few of the earlier witnesses but notice Judge Masipa addressing Mrs Burger.

From Wildabouttrial archive = Day 2 session 1 @ 7.37mins

"When counsel ask a question, you answer that question... unless he asks for an explanation, you don't... you don't give an explanation. If the answer is yes, you say "yes", if it's no, you say "no", if you don't know, you say "I don't know", if you don't remember, you say "I don't remember". Otherwise you will be in that witness box for another day and maybe tomorrow or the day thereafter. The quicker way to get out of that box is to answer exactly what counsel is asking.

 

[nastasya]

That case is consistent with other SA cases dealing with putative self defense. If there's a genuine belief by the accused that he's shooting in self defense to prevent harm to himself or others, then there is no intent for murder.

OP denied he shot the gun in self-defense.

Now what?

 

[nastasya]

Based on the opinion we're talking about, he wouldn't be found to have fired four times. Just once. I think his future will be decided by whether the state can prove he had no subjective fear of an intruder.

jmo

The state does not have the burden of proof to show OP had no fear. That would be impossible.

The state presented a prima facie case for murder with intent. OP has the burden of proof now to show that his shooting of an innocent victim was not murder.

 

[crasshopper]

If something about a sick bucket is any kind of intelligent response, you've obviously missed the point.

There's no reason for me to continue this topic with you.

All my responses are intelligent or funny.
Clearly you missed the point.

Maybe someone else can answer the more salient point as to the NAME emblazoned on the box of corresponding ammo found on the scene, if it wasn't secreted away.

 

[nastasya]

In the US, judges are bound by precedent. Presumably SA courts are the same (although I haven't looked it up yet). In that case, the court will be bound to find that, consistent with its decision last month, the trigger was pulled once.

Unless of course someone can show that the guns in the prior case and this case are different. So far I've got that they're 9 mm semi-automatics. jmo

You are misconstruing how the law works.

Courts are not bound by precedent. They can use precedents to justify their decisions.

Further, the precedents are interpretations of the law, not interpretation of the facts.

 

[nastasya]

The name 'Black Talon' rather than 'hollow-point' was used by Nel because he knew that it would cause a stir, be picked up by the media, and create an early storm with public opinion. It was a good ploy, as it created the intended buzz around those who had little knowledge of guns or ammunition.

The Black Talon bullet is not an unusual bullet and does no more damage than any other hollow-point bullet. The only reason these bullets are not widely available is because Winchester haven't manufactured them under that brand name for years. They now use the name Winchester Ranger.

Nel has spent years with law enforcement agencies, and his own guys use Winchester Ranger bullets in their weapons. If you are a perpetrator and shot by law enforcement then the chances are you will be shot with a re-branded Black Talon. Not surprisingly Nel didn't mention this.

The reason these bullets are used is because they are effective. They stop an assailant, and the bullet is less likely to travel through the assailant and hit another person or cause collateral damage. Black Talon is simply a brand name.

The gun used by OP was a Taurus. How often have we heard the name mentioned by Nel? Hardly ever. Now, if the gun was called the Taurus 'Destroyer', can you imagine how quickly Nel and the media would have latched onto this?


...hope you catch my drift.

:smile:


n.b. I have attached a photograph of hollow point-bullets, as I think it's important to show how hype and media sensationalism can distort and create a misunderstanding.

Black Talon on left, Ranger on right.

Link

Catch your drift?

That OP is somehow the victim again because Nel referred to the bullets by their black talon brand name instead of calling them hollow point bullets?

Not sure why you think this is important to point out. I think it lacks any importance.

 

[nastasya]

If something about a sick bucket is any kind of intelligent response, you've obviously missed the point.

There's no reason for me to continue this topic with you.

What was your reason was to start the topic about Nel calling the bullets by their brand name?

OP putting a bullet through Reeva's brain is what caused the headlines, not Nel referring to the name of the bullet.

 

[Jake18]

The entire defence just reeks of desperation.

Trying to suggest a Dr. was lying because his curtains were closed 14 months later is simply ludicrous.

One of the South African legal guys Sky interviewed stated the DT are using their best witnesses first......

So Dixon was a strong point? Actually, I feel sorry for him. He would have been excited and nervous and picked out his best suit and everything.

 

[kaos]

Does anybody know why Oldwage sometimes appears to be listening to testimony via earphones? He can obviously speak English and the testimony he's listening to is English so why the earphones?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Has it ever been confirmed that the inside-out jeans were indeed Reeva's? During this part of OP's testimony, didn't June mouth the words, "Those aren't Reeva's jeans" or something to that effect? Am I misremembering??
Why would she have jeans on the bedroom floor and jeans outside the bathroom window?
:dunno:

The jeans have always been a mystery to me as well .
The ones in the bedroom look liked they have been ripped off quickly in my opinion . I think June commented that they looked too big to be Reeva's if they were OP's maybe he took them off at speed so as to put shorts on so create the imagine that he had been to bed .
If they were Reeva's and she was in PJ's when OP arrived why would she have left them like that ? She wouldn't have been in a rush .
Looking at her neatly packed bag and slippers placed by the bed they seem out of place . I think had they been dragged off in the throws of passion OP would have said as much . Reeva could have been trying to leave and he dragged them back off her . Who knows really .
As for the jeans outside I personally think it is likely they were thrown out whilst shouting "get out of my house "
IIRR that is how he behaved in a previous incident where a girl was injured with a panel from his door because he slammed it so hard . That seems to be his modus operandi when arguing.
Nel's closing arguments may incorporate his thoughts on both these things .

 

[Trooper]

If something about a sick bucket is any kind of intelligent response, you've obviously missed the point.

There's no reason for me to continue this topic with you.

So what was the point?? I missed it, too.. do elaborate.