Trial Discussion Thread #32

[shane13]

Not unlike the defense using terms like "unfortunate incident" to refer to a brutal murder after witnesses heard terrified, blood-curdling screams.

This reminds me of the truly great movie, "Z" by Costa-Gavros.

It's about the assassination of a Greek Senator and Presidential candidate.
The military did it but covered it up.

A lowly Asst D.A. (sort of) kept referring to it insistently only as the event or the accident. As he questioned more and more people starting to go up the ladder to top Colonels, he all of a sudden used the word Assassination. He arrested the top Colonels in the Govt.

Alas the killing of Reeva could also be referred to as a deliberate Assassination if Pros version is correct. And I have written here and elsewhere for almost a year that the Pros version is nowhere near as horrifying as the real killing/assassination.

 

[molly333]

Simple really molly. He locked the bedroom door and took the key.....he knew she wasn't downstairs.

We know Oscar moved her body once.

Who's to say he didn't move her body twice, or more...

...Unless the police searched the rest of the house, which I haven't found any trial testimony yet that they did.

Maybe someone else can find testimony that they did search the rest of the house . I'm waiting.

MOO

 

[DebinGA]

you can call it the "Sweet Lollipop ' bullet, but this is the damage it can do...

http://you.co.za/news/warning-graphic-images-of-reevas-head-in-court/

Yes, "black talon" is more descriptive than "hollow point". Capt. Mangena illustrated its blossoming/mushrooming action using his hands, and Dr. Saayman described the results of the black talons on Reeva well. I'm sure OP winces every time he hears "black talon" in court, which is a good thing imo, and would prefer only hearing "hollow point".

 

[shane13]

And maybe people should focus on who told that to Mr Baba--and if that directive itself is criminal?!

Let me follow up on my post here.

I am pretty sure Mr Baba testified that Mr Stander told him not to go to OP's house. Also I am pretty sure that OP had phoned Stander before this directive to Baba--otherwise why tell Baba not to go there? If he hadn't been told, Stander might have thought OP needed help.

So it is pretty clear that Stander knew from OP that Reeva was dying.

Is it not a criminal offense especially for someone who is part of estate security or who directs them, to order his security people NOT to go assist a dying person who had just been shot?

And if it is a criminal offense, where is the prosecution, the charging of Mr Stander?

 

[Interested Bystander]

We know Oscar moved her body once.

Who's to say he didn't move her body twice, or more...

...Unless the police searched the rest of the house, which I haven't found any trial testimony yet that they did.

Maybe someone else can find testimony that they did search the rest of the house . I'm waiting.

MOO

I cannot imagine why you would think the police would not look in all other rooms. The fact that we have not read about it is irrelevant. Had OP moved her there would have been blood drips and possibly spurts along the path he took and it would have been obvious to anyone. I am unsure why you are arguing this point. Have I missed some important logic somewhere along the line?

 

[molly333]

I cannot imagine why you would think the police would not look in all other rooms. The fact that we have not read about it is irrelevant. Had OP moved her there would have been blood drips and possibly spurts along the path he took and it would have been obvious to anyone. I am unsure why you are arguing this point. Have I missed some important logic somewhere along the line?

First, it was imperative that police investigate the entire house and grounds.

Second, I have not heard any testimony that they did. Maybe someone else heard this testimony, but they have not yet directed me to it.

Third, police have testified in court to everything they did in that house, and, like I said, I didn't hear any testimony that they searched the entire house.

Fourth, if they didn't search the entire house, why didn't they?

This would not just be sloppy police work, it would be over the top.

MOO

 

[jay-jay]

We know Oscar moved her body once.

Who's to say he didn't move her body twice, or more...

...Unless the police searched the rest of the house, which I haven't found any trial testimony yet that they did.

Maybe someone else can find testimony that they did search the rest of the house . I'm waiting.

MOO

I did wonder at some point whether it could've been the case that he killed her in another part of the house, then took her up to the bathroom/toilet in order to set up a scene where she had been mistaken for an intruder .. but I quickly discounted it because it all would've taken too much planning, and the forensics just doesn't bear it out. If OP had killed her elsewhere in the house, how would he then have been able to make sure there was a bullet hole in her hip which directly lined up with a bullet hole in the door? If she was already dead, then he would've had to have got her held up in some way as for her to have been standing directly behind the door .. while she was dead .. and that just isn't possible. I think you are right to consider it, but imo it just isn't something which could possibly have been carried out.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Let me follow up on my post here.

I am pretty sure Mr Baba testified that Mr Stander told him not to go to OP's house. Also I am pretty sure that OP had phoned Stander before this directive to Baba--otherwise why tell Baba not to go there? If he hadn't been told, Stander might have thought OP needed help.

So it is pretty clear that Stander knew from OP that Reeva was dying.

Is it not a criminal offense especially for someone who is part of estate security or who directs them, to order his security people NOT to go assist a dying person who had just been shot?

And if it is a criminal offense, where is the prosecution, the charging of Mr Stander?

Thanks
I didn't know that Stander had told Baba not to attend . That information came out during Baba's evidence ?
I do think I remember Baba being told to stay outside though ?

 

[lithgow1]

We know Oscar moved her body once.

Who's to say he didn't move her body twice, or more...

...Unless the police searched the rest of the house, which I haven't found any trial testimony yet that they did.

Maybe someone else can find testimony that they did search the rest of the house . I'm waiting.

MOO

I don't understand the need to go deeper into this and start looking for evidence of things no-one else seems to have suggested. Or why, if this is what they want to do, they don't do it themselves instead of asking others to do the research.

It might be more productive to concetrate on what we know - which is OP pumped four bullets into a door and in the process killed his girlfriend. It seems that some people shy away from discussing the actual facts of the case for some reason of their own.

 

[Jake18]

2:23 on tape, Witness Michelle Burgher

There were four gunshots. And, then I heard her petrified screaming some time during the gunshots. And, just after the gunshots was the last that I heard the same woman's voice, the same woman's voice that woke me that evening.

Oscar Neighbour Heard 'Blood-Curdling Screams' - YouTube


I am 99 percent certain Mrs. Burgher did not hear Reeva scream during the gunshots, and 100 percent certain she didn't hear Reeva scream after the gunshots.

Therefore, she was hearing Oscar's screams, and the bat strikes. She slept through the gunshots.

MOO

Prof Saayman testified that a scream initiated before the head shot would tail off after it.

 

[molly333]

I did wonder at some point whether it could've been the case that he killed her in another part of the house, then took her up to the bathroom/toilet in order to set up a scene where she had been mistaken for an intruder .. but I quickly discounted it because it all would've taken too much planning, and the forensics just doesn't bear it out. If OP had killed her elsewhere in the house, how would he then have been able to make sure there was a bullet hole in her hip which directly lined up with a bullet hole in the door? If she was already dead, then he would've had to have got her held up in some way as for her to have been standing directly behind the door .. while she was dead .. and that just isn't possible. I think you are right to consider it, but imo it just isn't something which could possibly have been carried out.

We don't know that bullets are exactly lining up with wounds. if they are estimating [and State and Prosecution disagree so far on how and where she was standing and falling], Oscar could estimate, too.

MOO

 

[Trooper]

First, it was imperative that police investigate the entire house and grounds.

Second, I have not heard any testimony that they did. Maybe someone else heard this testimony, but they have not yet directed me to it.

Third, police have testified in court to everything they did in that house, and, like I said, I didn't hear any testimony that they searched the entire house.

Fourth, if they didn't search the entire house, why didn't they?

This would not just be sloppy police work, it would be over the top.

MOO

:deadhorse:

 

[shane13]

Thanks
I didn't know that Stander had told Baba not to attend . That information came out during Baba's evidence ?
I do think I remember Baba being told to stay outside though ?

As I recall, Baba testified that Stander told him not to go, but he went anyway. I have not listened again since the testimony. But pretty sure that is what he said.
I think Baba went because what is it 3 guards by then heard shooting?

One of my faves' is that someone here said his testimony revealed that he saw OP just standing there with her body, and only then went down the stairs when he saw people now saw him.

I myself did not catch that because I had trouble understanding him and/or that translator. Though ya gotta love how her English comes out in almost a rhyme. It's lovely, but hard to follow.

 

[DebinGA]

I think the story about him shooting the dog is consistent with this. It's unfortunate that he hit the dog; this can happen to anyone even if they are driving responsibly . It can be argued that shooting the dog was the kindest thing to do, if it was beyond veterinary help. But the way he seems to have gone about this, then driving off without a word to the owner, no apology or sympathetic words: that all suggests to me that he relished the opportunity to shoot dead a living creature.

That incident is one of many times OP showed total indifference to the feelings of others. That he volunteered that story out of the blue to a reporter says something important about him.

 

[jay-jay]

Thanks
I didn't know that Stander had told Baba not to attend . That information came out during Baba's evidence ?
I do think I remember Baba being told to stay outside though ?

I don't remember it, either .. I'm just looking on lisa's blog and can't find anything (other than when Baba got there, it seemed that Stander was blocking his entry to the house by the way he was standing in the entrance, but I can't find anything to say that Baba had a call from Stander or that he was put off by him from attending the scene) I would really need to go and find the actual transcript of the testimonies to confirm it .

 

[molly333]

Prof Saayman testified that a scream initiated before the head shot would tail off after it.

You mean after she died instantly from the head wound? I don't think so. And, don't forget the distance that the Burghers live from OP.





Nel then asked if Steenkamp would have been able to use her right arm after the injury, but Saayman said this would have been very unlikely.

He also said the wound to the head was incapacitating and instantly fatal.

Saayman said, however, that the seriousness of the wounds to the hip and right arm could have also led to her death.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/reeva-s-head-wound-fatal-pathologist-1.1659020

 

[Bazinga]

Feeling very sad tonight about Reeva's death and all she misses out on as a consequence. I was very sick last year, critical in hospital on the night Reeva died and for more than six months I struggled through treatment to be well again. I did not want to lose my life and all the years ahead of me. In the end life is our most precious possession. It is so sad to think of the following.
In the weeks before her death, Reeva saying to Oscar "I just want to love and be loved".. "I'm certainly very unhappy and sad". That he scares her, picks on her...
On the night of her death, locked in a dark toilet room, fearing for her life.
The brutality of her killing, destruction of her body, the pain and fear and realisation she may have felt.
After her death, lying on a tiled floor while multiple people walked by her, gathered items, talked on phones, planned a defence.
And all that she will miss in the 50 or 60 years ahead - love, career success, marriage/partnership, becoming a mother, watching her children grow, travel, family and friendships, becoming a grandparent, growing old...
I've just tucked my sweet children into bed, thankful for them and for my life.
It just reminds me of what Oscar has done and how very sad and unfair this is for Reeva.
I think the moment I heard Roux concede that their double tap "version" was changing, ie Oscar lied about that and it actually happened a different way, I've felt deflated. I wanted him to at least tell the truth but I don't believe him from that point. It has made it even more sad. Poor Reeva.
Probably a good idea for me to take a few days break. Most of the time I can look at the case with interest, perspective, even a bit of humour but not right now. Sorry to be a downer.

 

[lithgow1]

As I recall, Baba testified that Stander told him not to go, but he went anyway. I have not listened again since the testimony. But pretty sure that is what he said.
I think Baba went because what is it 3 guards by then heard shooting?

One of my faves' is that someone here said his testimony revealed that he saw OP just standing there with her body, and only then went down the stairs when he saw people now saw him.

I myself did not catch that because I had trouble understanding him and/or that translator. Though ya gotta love how her English comes out in almost a rhyme. It's lovely, but hard to follow.

Here's the link to Baba's evidence on the Juror13 blog if that helps. I'm just reading it now and can't see anything about Stander telling him not to go (as yet) but have got to the bit where he felt the Standers didn't want him to enter.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-5-part-2/

Below is Juro13's entry re that:

<modsnip>

PS Hope I am attributing this copyrighted material acceptably.

 

[Cherwell]

Prof Saayman testified that a scream initiated before the head shot would tail off after it.

Thanks for that clear and concise statement.

 

[molly333]

:deadhorse:

You don't think police should have considered the entire house a crime scene?

You don't think police should have investigated the entire house?

Is that what they teach in the police academy? Just go to the room the suspect directs you to?

Maybe they did. But, I haven't seen the testimony to that effect, yet.