Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[Hope4More]

Funnily enough, much of the Stander's testimony was met with quite a bit of scorn here in SA.

The various tweets doing the rounds (and many were shown on the Oscar Channel 199 on our DSTV) were less than complimentary.

Most people found their testimony 'basically honest' yet supremely blown up with lots of hot air from the Oscar PR machine's pump.

Because their evidence did nothing to damage the PT's case, and very little to bolster the DT's - most felt it was a PR driven moment in the trial.

Much embellishing, with a huge dollop of tailoring and sympathy for Oscar's cause; nothing more than character witnesses for the DT - yet more than a few points scored for the PT I reckon?

Most in SA felt they were over the top sugary and therefore not as credible as they might have been had they stuck to the facts..............and ignored the 'poor Oscar' angle.

Of course there are the 'believers' who sobbed with the Standers...........(then again these are folk who believe Oscar managed to open and kick doors whilst brandishing a firearm in the dark etc etc etc etc)

Its dicey to assert what a nation thinks or believes about anything. From what I've been reading, South Africans when interviewed almost universally expressed that they understood the fear OP has testified about.

There was a great article back in March about an American journalist who witnessed for himself what he describes as the almost clinical paranoia of SA's middle class about home invasions and breakins, no matter how gated and secure their homes, and no matter the "rape doors" securing their bedrooms, etc.

That generalized paranoia made me see OP's story in a different light, and yep, made it far more believable.

And, personally, I thought the Standers were entirely credible. I bet the judge did too, witness her note-taking during their time on the stand. This case is about state of mind. It is telling how clearly devastated OP was minutes after he killed her.

And its interesting indeed that the neighbors closest to his house did NOT hear a woman screaming.

 

[thewagesofsin]

I'm way behind on this one but I can't stop thinking about Roux's cross exam of the witness where he asked him to hit the door balancing on his knees without his feet or legs touching the floor. Roux seemed to score some points with this one but Oscar has stumps below his knees that I'm sure can be used to balance himself. Or does he actually walk on his stumps when he doesn't have his legs on? It seemed weird for Oscar to complain about a lack of balance/mobility in one breath and then talk of running down the passage in the next. Maybe I have my timing wrong, will have to watch these days over again.

 

[wb180]

I bet the actor who gave OP lessons knows a lot about stage makeup too. OP seems to have requested the "broken man" look.

I guess I will give him the benefit of the doubt. If the majority of us thinks he is going to be spending a time in jail, I am sure he is seeing the same thing - a slow motion train wreck with him in it but rejoicing at any small advantage he may have.

Such a pity - his strong character created so much success for him that he was in cloud 9 but it is also the same thing that made him fall back to earth (and into jail).

Judging by Masipa past judgments, by the time he gets out, he will be a very old man and no one is going to remember who he is - just another disabled person who killed his gf.

Sounds like a movie in the making

 

[Giles]

BINGO. Going to add it to the list: .

Roux said that the defense would present evidence PROVING that :

1. RS never screamed because the headshot was the first shot

2. OP sounds just like a woman when he screams, and the screams the 5 witnesses heard were actually OP screaming

3. The sounds of the cricket bat are indistinguishable from the sounds of gunshots

4. Something about double taps...[he gave up on that already]

5. The police tampered with the photos and the crime scene

Any other promises he has left to prove before Tuesday?

Roux also said that he was going to call character witnesses who would say that Oscar never shouted at Reeva or talked down to her (I remember something to this effect).

 

[wb180]

Its dicey to assert what a nation thinks or believes about anything. From what I've been reading, South Africans when interviewed almost universally expressed that they understood the fear OP has testified about.

There was a great article back in March about an American journalist who witnessed for himself what he describes as the almost clinical paranoia of SA's middle class about home invasions and breakins, no matter how gated and secure their homes, and no matter the "rape doors" securing their bedrooms, etc.

That generalized paranoia made me see OP's story in a different light, and yep, made it far more believable.

And, personally, I thought the Standers were entirely credible. I bet the judge did too, witness her note-taking during their time on the stand. This case is about state of mind. It is telling how clearly devastated OP was minutes after he killed her.

And its interesting indeed that the neighbors closest to his house did NOT hear a woman screaming.

Websleuth101 = generalized paranoia = OP far more believable.
Websleuth201 = generalized paranoia + opened balcony doors while sleeping = OP is less believable.
WebsleuthX01 = generalized paranoia + opened balcony doors while sleeping + all the other evidence provided = OP is 100% not believable.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I'm sure this has been discussed but I just wanted to hear what your thoughts are re: the balcony (bedroom).

I believe Oscar and Reeva might have been on that balcony at some stage during the altercation. This perhaps why Oscar said to Gerrie on the cross, "Why? Did someone see me out there?" when Gerrie was questioning him about it. (Could be why Oscar, as early as his bail affidavit stated that he had 'fetched the fans from the balcony' - perhaps in anticipation of a witness statement (they were only being interviewed at this stage) stating that he had been seen on the balcony prior to the shots.

If it has been discussed I apologize. The balcony bugs me........badly. (Amongst about 600 other things of course...)

this fits well.

he has had to 'cover' for a few actions, knowing they would be seriously incriminating if witnesses saw/heard, or evidence was unearthed... some possibilities:

moving the body
phone
damaged door
airgun pellet
"get out of my house"
lights on/off
running to and from the bathroom area

it wouldn't surprise me if there's still something glaring to him, that are on show within the photos. for instance - the inside-out jeans - the 'blue led' story was quite odd.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Thanks---Going to add it to the list: .

Roux said that the defense would present evidence PROVING that :

1. RS never screamed because the headshot was the first shot

2. OP sounds just like a woman when he screams, and the screams the 5 witnesses heard were actually OP screaming

3. The sounds of the cricket bat are indistinguishable from the sounds of gunshots

4. Something about double taps...[he gave up on that already]

5. The police tampered with the photos and the crime scene

6. OP felt extremely vulnerable because of his disability and because of his personal history as a crime victim

7. Middle child of three - very terrible destiny.

Any other promises he has left to prove before Tuesday?

7. added by me. - Roux hasn't announced to prove, but better would be.

 

[BritsKate]

Its dicey to assert what a nation thinks or believes about anything. From what I've been reading, South Africans when interviewed almost universally expressed that they understood the fear OP has testified about.

There was a great article back in March about an American journalist who witnessed for himself what he describes as the almost clinical paranoia of SA's middle class about home invasions and breakins, no matter how gated and secure their homes, and no matter the "rape doors" securing their bedrooms, etc.

That generalized paranoia made me see OP's story in a different light, and yep, made it far more believable.

And, personally, I thought the Standers were entirely credible. I bet the judge did too, witness her note-taking during their time on the stand. This case is about state of mind. It is telling how clearly devastated OP was minutes after he killed her.

And its interesting indeed that the neighbors closest to his house did NOT hear a woman screaming.

Oscar doesn't live like most South Africans. We've been fortunate to have some wonderful posts by people who live there who describe that general fear but still struggle to accept Oscar's account simply because of where and how he lived. He lived in a veritable fortress with a remarkably low crime rate. If you'd like to search out these posts, the user's names are: liesbeth and Cape Town Crim., the latter is the person you responded to, of course. Their insight is absolutely invaluable and very much appreciated.

JMO

ETA: Regarding my bold, I find it more interesting they didn't hear a man screaming like a woman either.

 

[DebinGA]

BBM - I'd like to know what right non-family members thought they had to remove Reeva's private and personal belongings from the scene instead of handing them straight over to the police.

RSBM
We're talking about people who thought gathering rope and garbage bags was more important than calling an ambulance.

 

[Giles]

I guess I will give him the benefit of the doubt. If the majority of us thinks he is going to be spending a time in jail, I am sure he is seeing the same thing - a slow motion train wreck with him in it but rejoicing at any small advantage he may have.

Such a pity - his strong character created so much success for him that he was in cloud 9 but it is also the same thing that made him fall back to earth (and into jail).

Judging by Masipa past judgments, by the time he gets out, he will be a very old man and no one is going to remember who he is - just another disabled person who killed his gf.

Sounds like a movie in the making

Surely if he goes to jail for a long time when he gets released he will become President!

Edited, as I'm on my phone!

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I'm sure this has been discussed but I just wanted to hear what your thoughts are re: the balcony (bedroom).

I believe Oscar and Reeva might have been on that balcony at some stage during the altercation. This perhaps why Oscar said to Gerrie on the cross, "Why? Did someone see me out there?" when Gerrie was questioning him about it. (Could be why Oscar, as early as his bail affidavit stated that he had 'fetched the fans from the balcony' - perhaps in anticipation of a witness statement (they were only being interviewed at this stage) stating that he had been seen on the balcony prior to the shots.

If it has been discussed I apologize. The balcony bugs me........badly. (Amongst about 600 other things of course...)

It is certainly possible that they were out there at some point because the light was on although even if they were only talking I think the stipp's would likely have heard as the side of the balcony faces the Stipp's bedroom.
It is odd The stipp's didn't hear the raised voices that one of the other witnesses heard. Maybe they were downstairs ?
I would love a full set off house plans to see where different rooms are in relation to the other ear witnesses. So far we only have plans for part of the upstairs .
Also it would be good to see exactly where Frank was.
To me it is a hugely interesting that he hasn't even given evidence for the defence unless of course he is called later .

 

[thewagesofsin]

It is certainly possible that they were out there at some point because the light was on although even if they were only talking I think the stipp's would likely have heard as the side of the balcony faces the Stipp's bedroom.
It is odd The stipp's didn't hear the raised voices that one of the other witnesses heard. Maybe they were downstairs ?
I would love a full set off house plans to see where different rooms are in relation to the other ear witnesses. So far we only have plans for part of the upstairs .
Also it would be good to see exactly where Frank was.
To me it is a hugely interesting that he hasn't even given evidence for the defence unless of course he is called later .

I really wonder what this man knows. Isn't it odd that when Oscar said he ran to the balcony to shout for help that he didn't call downstairs for Frank's help? Did he just plain forget about his houseboy/servant?? It doesn't fit into his story very well.

 

[DebinGA]

this fits well.

he has had to 'cover' for a few actions, knowing they would be seriously incriminating if witnesses saw/heard, or evidence was unearthed... some possibilities:

moving the body
phone
damaged door
airgun pellet
"get out of my house"
lights on/off
running to and from the bathroom area

it wouldn't surprise me if there's still something glaring to him, that are on show within the photos. for instance - the inside-out jeans - the 'blue led' story was quite odd.

I'd like to know how OP et al thought his tale of feeling all around the bed for Reeva post-murder, on his stumps and carrying his cocked gun, squares with this pic of the floor he claims he walked through and would have felt Reeva had she been hiding there as he'd advised:

http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/art...s2197/MAIN-Inside-Oscar-Pistorius-bedroom.jpg

He'd have had to walk over the duvet and through/around the fan at the foot of the bed too, in the pitch dark, when he returned to the dark bathroom but made no mention of that iirc.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Its dicey to assert what a nation thinks or believes about anything. From what I've been reading, South Africans when interviewed almost universally expressed that they understood the fear OP has testified about.

There was a great article back in March about an American journalist who witnessed for himself what he describes as the almost clinical paranoia of SA's middle class about home invasions and breakins, no matter how gated and secure their homes, and no matter the "rape doors" securing their bedrooms, etc.

That generalized paranoia made me see OP's story in a different light, and yep, made it far more believable.

And, personally, I thought the Standers were entirely credible. I bet the judge did too, witness her note-taking during their time on the stand. This case is about state of mind. It is telling how clearly devastated OP was minutes after he killed her.

And its interesting indeed that the neighbors closest to his house did NOT hear a woman screaming.

If Oscar had shot her once, and there weren't about 800 inconsistencies in his version of events - maybe. The problem is, the sum of Oscar's parts are stuffing up his 'whole'. In isolation his 'fear' is real. When read with the rest of the parts - no go IMHO.

The fear of crime in SA is real, very real; which is why many South Africans were prepared to give him some benefit of the doubt when the story broke. As details emerged, the winds - they started a changing. Even those who 'believe' have niggling doubts as to some of his testimony. I don't claim to speak for the nation at all - I speak from what I read, hear and feel amongst the general population. 2/3's I believe find his story hogwash, along with his 'fears'.

I am South African, I KNOW the fear Oscar was hoping to somehow magically 'tap into'. I have been a victim in my own home, (and that with roving Rottweilers indoors and out).

I own a firearm. As do many of my friends.

Yet none of us in circumstances as dubious as Oscar's have pumped 4 hollow points into a toilet door. And yes, some have disabilities - yet they have still managed or neutralized the threat in a responsible manner.

This South African doesn't buy what he is selling. One shot, and I might have - IF there were none of the other 'inconsistencies'.

Just my opinion. But read a few of our local news sites for comments - you might be surprised.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Its dicey to assert what a nation thinks or believes about anything. From what I've been reading, South Africans when interviewed almost universally expressed that they understood the fear OP has testified about.

There was a great article back in March about an American journalist who witnessed for himself what he describes as the almost clinical paranoia of SA's middle class about home invasions and breakins, no matter how gated and secure their homes, and no matter the "rape doors" securing their bedrooms, etc.

That generalized paranoia made me see OP's story in a different light, and yep, made it far more believable.

And, personally, I thought the Standers were entirely credible. I bet the judge did too, witness her note-taking during their time on the stand. This case is about state of mind. It is telling how clearly devastated OP was minutes after he killed her.

And its interesting indeed that the neighbors closest to his house did NOT hear a woman screaming.

That is because they awoke after the shooting. If they can sleep through gunfire, screaming is not going to wake them. :maddening:

 

[Viper]

BBM - I'd like to know what right non-family members thought they had to remove Reeva's private and personal belongings from the scene instead of handing them straight over to the police. They should be charged with crime interference. How dare they take Reeva's bag when she had just been murdered and the whole place was a crime scene. Nothing should have been taken without the express permission and acknowledgement of a senior police officer - and even then, why on earth would a police officer say 'No problem. Of course you can take the deceased's bag'??

I had at first, after hearing Carice say she and Aimee were taking Reeva's purse for safekeeping, thought that made some sense if they believed OP had killed Reeva accidentally. But if you are saying that to get the purse Aimee had to tell the police that it was hers and she had simply forgotten it on the kitchen counter, that is something entirely different. Is that how she was able to get back in to the house and get the purse? I would think that it had to be.

I don't like the Standers nor Aimee, especially after hearing the Standers testimony. Much of it just came across as BS to my senses.

 

[lithgow1]

No mistake. He has many supporters who refuse to concede even the most obvious frailties in his 'version', and these people are driven by emotion IMHO, not by reality.

A UCT (University of Cape Town) senior lecturer in public law, Kelly Phelps, is one of these 'believers' - and this is an educated soul (allegedly). She is a fan girl DELUX and seemingly oblivious. (She believes Dixon kicked butt on the stand - when every other legal professional in South Africa is still laughing at what transpired) All education and common sense is shoveled aside when high emotion comes knocking.

Some folk are unable to separate emotion from the matters at hand.

Once again CTC you please me with your posts.

I've commented/complained a number of times about Ms Phelps. She was just as bad today - totally in the bag for OP it seems, to the point where it seems ridiculous that she is not balanced on CNN by someone less biased. During OP's cross Robyn Curnow (another 'fan' I think) called Nel's questions a 'character assassination' and Phelps nodded vigorously and said 'Absolutely'. She says that a lot.

I've yet to see or hear her on anything where her view of the proceedings is challenged by any other legal experts. Have you? I'm at the point with her where part of the reason I want a 'guilty' verdict is to see how she spins that as a plus for Pistorius as there's always appeals!

 

[Nausicaa]

I really wonder what this man knows. Isn't it odd that when Oscar said he ran to the balcony to shout for help that he didn't call downstairs for Frank's help? Did he just plain forget about his houseboy/servant?? It doesn't fit into his story very well.

I think the most likely explanation for why he hasn't been called as a witness is that both sides can see that he's a loose cannon.

 

[thewagesofsin]

If Oscar had shot her once, and there weren't about 800 inconsistencies in his version of events - maybe. The problem is, the sum of Oscar's parts are stuffing up his 'whole'. In isolation his 'fear' is real. When read with the rest of the parts - no go IMHO.

The fear of crime in SA is real, very real; which is why many South Africans were prepared to give him some benefit of the doubt when the story broke. As details emerged, the winds - they started a changing. Even those who 'believe' have niggling doubts as to some of his testimony. I don't claim to speak for the nation at all - I speak from what I read, hear and feel amongst the general population. 2/3's I believe find his story hogwash, along with his 'fears'.

I am South African, I KNOW the fear Oscar was hoping to somehow magically 'tap into'. I have been a victim in my own home, (and that with roving Rottweilers indoors and out).

I own a firearm. As do many of my friends.

Yet none of us in circumstances as dubious as Oscar's have pumped 4 hollow points into a toilet door. And yes, some have disabilities - yet they have still managed or neutralized the threat in a responsible manner.

This South African doesn't buy what he is selling. One shot, and I might have - IF there were none of the other 'inconsistencies'.

Just my opinion. But read a few of our local news sites for comments - you might be surprised.

This was my original thought and it hasn't changed much. I don't own a gun but went to a range once. I was surprised how hard it was to pull a trigger, they don't just go off without an effort. One shot=maybe you're startled. Four shots? Seems really improbable.

 

[steveml]

Couldn't 'screaming' and 'crying' be the same thing. People hearing the same sounds and just interpreting it with a different word?

I looked up the definition of 'screaming' and it says "give a long, loud, piercing cry or cries expressing extreme emotion or pain".

Yep, it's very easy to misinterpret one for the other.

If I had to describe a crying sound that was high pitched I'd probably use the term 'wailing', although I'm not sure of similar terminology in Afrikaans.