Trial Discussion Thread #35 - 14.05.08 Day 28

[steveml]

I doubt it has been put to bed, the NPA have said that there is nothing that they can do but the lawyers can deal with it separate from them. If Kim was a state witness and it had happened then they would definitely have got involved.

OK, but she isn't a state witness, so it doesn't affect the current trial one iota.

 

[Val1]

Wolmaran's conclusions: http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...creates-oscar-shooting-1.1685371#.U2uioyhbcdU

In a nutshell, any of the 4 shots could have left the "ricochet mark" on the wc wall, Reeva's arm was 6-20 cm from the door when hit, Reeva was likely standing when hit in her hip but it's impossible to determine the order of the shots ... and the bullets weren't black talons but similar "mushrooming" hollow points (Ranger something I think).

I don't recall W. stating whether they had tried shooting through a door that had possibly been whacked up a bit first, if the bat "bangs" did come first which I'm still pretty convinced of, then surely that would have had some impact on not only the trajectory of the bullets but also any subsequent splinters spewed from said bullets?

Yes, they weren't the "original" Black Talons, but he and Dixon both referred to them as black talon bullets.... they just weren't the very collectible original version but the later version of the slightly lighter "Ranger" black talons.

Re the order, possibly not but a poster had previously commented on why there pretty much had to have been a slight pause after the first bullet was fired, because only after that would the magazine have "engaged" allowing the next three to load quickly upon firing.

 

[fox1lady]

Yes, she is the only one from OP's "team" that I was ever concerned about... at least until I heard that she was the one that decided to openly walk back into the crime scene and "steal" RS's handbag(evidence) with Ms.Stander as her accomplice. Someone noted that the day that came to light through Ms.Stander's testimony that it was pretty much the only day of the trial that OP's sister had missed.

Oh I didn't know about that!!! She stole Reeva's bag? What did she do that for?

Ahhh it does make sense, I noticed that she wasn't at the trial one of the days this week.

 

[steveml]

Roux gets paid almost £6000 a day!! No way does a state prosecutor earn anything like that.

So if Nel is 'well paid' - what does that make Roux?!


http://thenewage.co.za/120275-1007-53-Oscars_legal_fees_to_cost_in_the_millions

The figure changes everywhere you look. No-one really knows. It took me 8 seconds to find a page quoting a £3500 a day.

It's almost halved in 8 seconds.

Link

 

[Gryffindor]

The figure changes everywhere you look. No-one really knows. It took me 8 seconds to find a page quoting a £3500 a day.

It's almost halved in 8 seconds.

Link

And I thought our pay freeze was bad! LOLZ ;-)

 

[fox1lady]

OK, but she isn't a state witness, so it doesn't affect the current trial one iota.

I doubt anyone is saying that it affects the current trial, it's just unfortunate that he displayed such behaviour at the place the trial is taking place. Very unfortunate as well that it was towards someone that the deceased considered to be family. Quite telling that something must have been said as the police went over to enquire when they saw Kim recoil after OP leaned over towards her.

 

[Hatfield]

No Steve. The Black Talon was one of the first commercially available hollow point bullets. It was designed to do incredible internal damage to human beings. Sometime in the 90s IIRC a maniac shot up an office full of people in San Francisco, killing perhaps 12-16 people with Black Talon hollow point bullets. Another similar incident happened in New York State. There was a public outcry to ban the technology. San Francisco did ban Black Talons, and I believe SA did as well. They were still available to law enforcement. The laws were specific to the exact characteristics that the original Black Talon had, so Winchester and other manufacturers changed simple characteristics to get around the laws.

It seems obvious that the SA law was specific to the original Black Talon too, and the improved Ranger series was/is available to the public there. But since there is a SA law related to the banning of the mother of the black tipped Ranger because it was considered so destructive to the human body and lethal, all hollow point bullets are refered to as Black Talon bullets in SA. Hollow point bullet = Black Talon bullet. If this were not the case Roux would have put a stop to the use of the "term" Black Talon immediately; or am I giving your guy too much credit...

Interesting. So any old hollow point is referred to as a "black talon" there in SA and hollow points are illegal there in SA?

That seems to go overboard. Hollow points are very common here in the states.

 

[sleuth-d-]

He first opened his bedroom door then he went and opened the front door. He ran back up to his room. On the way in to his room he tried to force open the door. He explains to the Judge that the door to his bedroom is a double door. The main door locks with a key and the other door has a latch at the top and bottom. He “ran in to the door and it didn’t break open.” So he reached down and unlatched the latch and it opened. Here is how the door was found by crime scene investigators.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/oscar-trial-day-18-oscar/




Doesn't that sound logical?

and isn't that the locked down position shown in the photo...

 

[Fuskier]

A bit about Probation Officers in SA. The service seems to be young and developed over the past decade. Whilst offender responsibility is inherent there are restorative and diversion services, some by referral to private companies. The emphasis does seem to be on young offenders/juveniles though not exclusively.

http://www.westerncape.gov.za/general-publication/who-are-probation-officers

I suspect the witness, EV may be inexperienced re adult, serious offenders and was out of her depth particularly re OP's highly emotional presentation.

I do wonder about the level of managerial supervision with regard to her putting herself forward to one side in such a subjective way.

Sadly, I am in agreement with this post. This is a serious murder trial where a boyfriend 'shot to death and blew the brains out' of his girlfriend of 3 months!
Query level of experience of practitioner with an alleged murderer?
Query level of Practice Supervision in such a highly emotive and public case?
Query organisational/management Supervision with an emotional 'knee jerk reaction' approach from the practitioner in a murder trial.
Concern where practitioners are put up as 'experts' when boundaries between professional/personal appear to have been 'blurred'.
Of course a murderer is capable of feeling and expressing 'high emotions' post the event especially when they are facing serious charges and possible imprisonment. Young, gullible practitioners without adequate Supervision are most at risk of blurring professional/personal boundaries.
In this case, the alleged murderer is also 'disabled' invoking emotional responses in others. IMO.
IMO his disability or his emotion expressed to supporters in the aftermath of the murder does not prove his 'intention' at the time of the murder.

 

[Viper]

RSBM

And as I wrote, there are studies demonstrating the unreliability of casings to determine a shooter's position which can only be less reliable in such a busy scenario...

You seem stuck on the locations that the casings were found. I am not. I specifically remember including information that the trajectory rods show that OP was moving from left to right as he fired with every pull of the trigger. Couple that with the locations where the casings were found and it demonstrates yet another significant OP lie.

 

[soozieqtips]

The figure changes everywhere you look. No-one really knows. It took me 8 seconds to find a page quoting a £3500 a day.

It's almost halved in 8 seconds.

Link

Maybe the £6000 is what OP is paying the entire DT then. But Nel will not be earning anything like that kind of money because he's a state prosecutor, not a private attorney. With a client like OP though, no one could really begrudge Roux the money anyway.

 

[steveml]

BBM


Don't forget about Dixon.

Dixon said that two sizes of splinters were created by the black talon ammunition that would have flown out of the door in different directions.

JMO

They probably all have specific strengths and weaknesses in their fields.

If I needed information regarding a bullet manufacturer or gun information, Woolie would be my go-to man. His CV screams this sort of knowledge.

Likewise, I thought Mangena handled the trajectory information very professionally.


...Roger could do my garden.

 

[Hatfield]

You seem stuck on the locations that the casings were found. I am not. I specifically remember including information that the trajectory rods show that OP was moving from left to right as he fired with every pull of the trigger. Couple that with the locations where the casings were found and it demonstrates yet another significant OP lie.

JMO
I may not be totally convinced he was tracking her with each shot but I am definitely convinced he knew where she was in that bathroom and was aiming at her. The angle of the bullet trajectory and where she was when shot paints a very obvious picture that he knew where his target was.

And if he knew where his target was then he had to have known it was her too.

 

[Gryffindor]

They probably all have specific strengths and weaknesses in their fields.

If I needed information regarding a bullet manufacturer or gun information, Woolie would be my go-to man. His CV screams this sort of knowledge.

Likewise, I thought Mangena handled the trajectory information very professionally.


...Roger could do my garden.

Aww. Poor Roger :-( Forever getting rubbered haha.

Resembled Postman Pat

 

[steveml]

Maybe the £6000 is what OP is paying the entire DT then. But Nel will not be earning anything like that kind of money because he's a state prosecutor, not a private attorney. With a client like OP though, no one could really begrudge Roux the money anyway.

Fair point.

I would imagine Roux charges on a case by case basis, and would expect Nel to be salaried which could make a large difference.

They undoubtedly work hard for their money, but I couldn't be doing with all the stop and starts, tea-breaks etc.

Everyone could be done and dusted by lunchtime. Two piles of badges, (innocent/guilty), stick one on the accused after listening for 5 minutes. Job done.
When you see the first legal production line hit the news, remember where you heard it first.

 

[Viper]

RSBM

Re the order, possibly not but a poster had previously commented on why there pretty much had to have been a slight pause after the first bullet was fired, because only after that would the magazine have "engaged" allowing the next three to load quickly upon firing.

Hi Val!

Regarding the BIB, I can guess which poster said that, but that is not true. It's amazing what people try to get away with on this thread! Really amazing.

OP had a magazine with bullets in it. He had a round already in the chamber in order to actually shoot that first bullet. After that 1st one fired the explosion of it being fired and leaving the barrel forced the slide back and as the slide came forward it loaded another bullet from the magazine in to the chamber, ready to fire with a 2nd pull of the trigger. That continues until he either stops firing or runs out of bullets.

The one and only reason that there was a pause after the 1st bullet was fired is OP paused to assess the situation and reacquire his target, Reeva, before firing the 2nd bullet.

 

[Val1]

I wonder whether the following will allow Nel to further explore any acting lessons since it was raised during the DT's lead?

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/surprise-witness-at-oscar-trial-1.1685303

The witness said she had recently read media reports that suggested Pistorius had received acting training for his case, and this had upset her greatly.

 

[Carmelita]

I think he really did make that comment, b/c really it fits it perfectly with what we know of his personality. I agree with the above assessment.

I also think he checks the blogs/sites/comments, and he is starting to really feel the heat. He went into this thinking he could fool everyone with his acting and lies. He thought he had his whole "story" worked out perfectly.

I don't think he made the comment. I think Kim loved Reeva and is fearful of Oscar in her mind getting away with murder. The defense is dismantling the prosecutions house brick by brick.

I disagree that "it fits perfectly with what we know of his personality" I believe it more accurately fits perfectly with the confirmation bias which has been carved in stone as factual information.

 

[steveml]

I doubt anyone is saying that it affects the current trial, it's just unfortunate that he displayed such behaviour at the place the trial is taking place. Very unfortunate as well that it was towards someone that the deceased considered to be family. Quite telling that something must have been said as the police went over to enquire when they saw Kim recoil after OP leaned over towards her.

I think it's more unfortunate that people can be prepared to take anything as gospel without any known facts.

Please remember that it isn't remotely probable that everything he says is a lie. It's impossible to live day to day like that.

If we take that logic one step further, then all OP needs to say is that he intentionally killed Reeva. That would be a lie of course

 

[Hatfield]

I think it's more unfortunate that people can be prepared to take anything as gospel without any known facts.

Please remember that it isn't remotely probable that everything he says is a lie. It's impossible to live day to day like that.

If we take that logic one step further, then all OP needs to say is that he intentionally killed Reeva. That would be a lie of course

I actually knew somone that was a compulsive liar. So they are out there.
This person I knew compulsively lied about everything. Even things that served no benefit to lie about. The person told me that he got in such a habit of it that he found himself wanting to lie about everything. Even unimportant nundane things.

I tend to think of OP like this person I knew. A compulsive liar who cant help himself from lying. Its a habit he formed. And when he really needs to use this skill he is so good at it since he does it all the time anyway.