Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[sleuth-d-]

On top of that, why phone Stander for help lifting Reeva when Frank is downstairs in his room off the kitchen?
IMHO he called Stander for a different reason, one we can only speculate about.

absolutely, the reason he called stander was not related to getting help for reeva. imo.

taking the op version.
after calling stander...
he then called netcare. 66 seconds. who apparently told him to get reeva to hospital asap. he puts the phone down. time: 3:21:11

after this... did he pick her up and rush her to his car? [or to the doorway to wait for stander's car?]

no. according to his phone records...
1. he phoned security??? and cried.
2. he phoned someone else??? but pressed the wrong button and got 121 [the voicemail]
3. he took a call from baba.
where is the urgency?

when stander arrived [3-5 minutes after the netcare call ended] op had only managed to get the body to the landing.



his own version is so difficult to reconcile time-wise and action-wise.

 

[BarnacleZA]

Interesting as always so thanks for that. Re the sound tests you mention at the end, I was having a coffee with an Irish friend who is a lawyer and I was telling him about the sound tests. While being quick to clarify that he doesn't know the system in SA he said that if the sound tests weren't done (by either side) in such a way as to convicnce the court of their validity the judge can request that any tests be re-done with all parties present. He agreed, from my summation of them, that the tests as they currently stand did not sound like they would pass muster.

The tests are useless! I was amazed that they even thought of presenting it in that way. Then... the admission by Dixon that the sound from the bat was amplified. (Despite that, when you listen to the sound clip, the of the bat is still softer than the sounds from the gunshots.) That is why Nel slipped in the question about the crickets being louder in the one recording. The judge will listen to that and it will destroy any value it may have had before that.

I also think the defence did not want the true facts before the court, but merely a perception, however inaccurate, just to say that no-one can prove which came first.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I'd love to get started on the problems experienced here in terms of crime scene management, but I would probably end up writing a book. Even in this very special case, where everybody involved knew it was going to turn into a media circus, they still would have been faced with the practical problems.

Because of the large number of crime scenes handled, policemen take short-cuts and don't do things "by the book" in many cases. In terms of the police, there is firstly a lack of numbers, some are properly trained, some of the others are not. Some aren't properly motivated and some are just bad policemen. Those who are properly trained take short-cuts. After taking short-cuts for long periods of time because of the work-load, it becomes the norm and when a case like this presents itself they automatically do things wrong.

I would guess if I compared it to the ideal, the SAPS would have less than 50% of the numbers they actually need. If you take into account that 30% of those my not have received proper training in the basics of crime scene management, you have only 35% of its ideal capacity. Then take into account that 30% of those may be demotivated or overworked and you end up with a police "service" that is only 25% effective.

Now, if I take the management of this specific scene into account (which was not too bad), I would give them an 80% pass-rate here, it means they outperformed the average expected by (80/25 = 3.2) by 220%

Additional info:
Just to place some of the forensic stuff in perspective too... The SAPS used to have Electronic Engineers that would do sound tests, etc... They now have zero electronic engineers. They still have the equipment available, but no-one suitably qualified to testify at the level required.... If you wondered why the SAPS did not do sound tests themselves...

Thank you for taking the time to explain all that. For SAPS to be understaffed by more than 50% is really staggering. That coupled with a very high crime rate explains a lot. How they deal with it is another matter entirely and it's obvious it's going to take a very long time.

Thanks again. Beware, all the troops will be back tomorrow. You know the saying, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". :seeya:

 

[james83]

absolutely, the reason he called stander was not related to getting help for reeva. imo.

taking the op version.
after calling stander...
he then called netcare. 66 seconds. who apparently told him to get reeva to hospital asap. he puts the phone down. time: 3:21:11

after this... did he pick her up and rush her to his car? [or to the doorway to wait for stander's car?]

no. according to his phone records...
1. he phoned security??? and cried.
2. he phoned someone else??? but pressed the wrong button and got 121 [the voicemail]
3. he took a call from baba.
where is the urgency?

when stander arrived [3-5 minutes after the netcare call ended] op had only managed to get the body to the landing.



his own version is so difficult to reconcile time-wise and action-wise.

This is one of the biggest problems with his fairy story for me, the moment he was apparently told to bring her to hospital he should have picked her up and gone, nothing else should have mattered at that point.

 

[Viper]

Huh?? Why would the so called intruder enter the home through an open widow then shut the window by slamming it shut???? Doesn't work for me.

I believe that you are misinterpreting what you have read. WhiteRum was referring to the slamming of the toilet door, not the window.

 

[homegirl]

OK, I've found where I got this from:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #35 - 14.05.08 Day 28

It was something that Wollie apparently said during his cross-exam on Friday ..

"W: If you look at the trajectory (of the probe) in this photo, it (bullet) appears to be going upwards. "

I'll have to check that bit of Friday's vid out to see what it was he was talking about ..

I will wait until Nel gets Wollie"s final version. He is changing it as the cross continues and is trying to be more vague, saying that anything could have happened in the WC, including that the bullet could have entered the door at a downwards trajectory and been deflected upwards on the exit side of the door by some anomaly of wood hardness or grain or something, IIRC
He has contradicted OP's version and also Dixon's and Jan Botha's so far. IMO

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

A noise then evolves into window sliding open, then slamming against the frame. Then the movement in the toilet evolves into the sound of wood moving. In that case for all he knew the mythical intruder could have had a wooden leg, just like the magazine rack.

In his haste to tailor the evidence his version/s are becoming even more of a farce, you could not make it up if you tried.

BBM

So funny Whiterum !

that burst me into laughter :floorlaugh:

 

[JudgeJudi]

I must say i'm enjoying reading everyones views , i don't join in much as i'm not as articulate as most of you ...... ps the real reason for this post was to show off my new profile pic , feel free to like it jk

C'mon moomin, join in. The more the merrier. Don't be shy, nice people are always welcome here.

 

[sleuth-d-]

BBM Yep.
Bullet B didn't miss by much. Reeva was in motion. It looks pretty deliberate to me and a pretty good shot for a guy who couldn't see or hear his "target". JMO

Link to the photo I used:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pistorius-trial/pistorius-trial-evidence-revealed-n61796

View attachment 43461

liking the 3d work.

have you tried putting the path of the four shots together in 3d space, into the bathroom area... to give an idea of where - and what height - they may have been shot from? the floor tiles give a good grid reference

 

[jay-jay]

IIRC, when last seen Wollie was imitating Reeva falling back with raised chin just before shots C or D hit her head. I fear for his poor back on Monday as he attemps a double axel to position Reeva's head over the toilet bowl.

Could someone put me right on this please .. when Wollie kept trying to demonstrate Reeva's movements when she was shot, he kept grabbing the outside of his arm when he was talking about the arm shot as if to indicate that that was where she was shot but my understanding is that she was shot in the area underneath the arm (i.e. as she held her hands up to her head). Where exactly was the shot to her arm, please?

 

[whiterum]

I think the only information we have is that it was some kind of financial meeting.

No details that I know of. Very vague, a bit like his version/versions.

Maybe this was nothing more than an old chestnut, invented to evoke sympathy from Reeva.

 

[Viper]

Well, that's not really what OP meant (he meant the sliding window hit the frame where it stops the window opening any further) .. but I do agree, none of his version makes any sense!

I do not recall hearing Mangena describe any of the bullet trajectories as going up. It appears to me that W is applying some ballistic theory to imply that one or more of the bullets exited the door in and upward trajectory. He said IIRC a variance of up to 4 degrees. W is trying to use diflection or deflection, I cannot determine which one, as his theory of this phenomenon. IOW He's making the bullet(s) change direction as they leave the door.

Just when you thought that OPs defense was ready to save his butt from the fire, W throws this in to the mix. LOL!!!

 

[jay-jay]

Maybe this was nothing more than an old chestnut, invented to evoke sympathy from Reeva.

Oh, you could well be right there .. he did seem to want her to stay over and she didn't seem that bothered about staying at that point (I suspect she was just going to leave the Valentine's gift there as a surprise for when he got back home) .. it's as if he coerced her into staying another night when she hadn't actually planned to.

 

[james83]

Could someone put me right on this please .. when Wollie kept trying to demonstrate Reeva's movements when she was shot, he kept grabbing the outside of his arm when he was talking about the arm shot as if to indicate that that was where she was shot but my understanding is that she was shot in the area underneath the arm (i.e. as she held her hands up to her head). Where exactly was the shot to her arm, please?

Right arm just above Elbow.

 

[Viper]

Could someone put me right on this please .. when Wollie kept trying to demonstrate Reeva's movements when she was shot, he kept grabbing the outside of his arm when he was talking about the arm shot as if to indicate that that was where she was shot but my understanding is that she was shot in the area underneath the arm (i.e. as she held her hands up to her head). Where exactly was the shot to her arm, please?

The general area above her elbow. The bullet completely fractured (broke in two) the bone, completely severed the artery, and blew a large entry and exit wound on either side, virtually amputating her right arm.

 

[DebinGA]

Wollie under oath re the sound test:

* "I'm not a sound expert. I don't know how to do it"

* "I was just asked to supervise the test."

Someone other than Dixon and Wollie was doing something, but just who I bet we'll never know.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Haha it's not about getting to hospital faster. It's about what is administered during the first minutes of a critical injury to that person.

But doesn't matter. Your choice if you want to be the emergency doctor and driver etc.

Anyways, back to OP, sure don't call ambulance. Call your mate in the middle of the night and wake him up and ask him to come over so that he can drive her who has been shot so he can then drive to the hospital. There isn't even a bed in a typical car haha.

Yep I can see the above is the most sensible decision...not. Haha

just to break this down even further.

op phoned stander for 'help'. yet, the phone call where netcare apparently told him to drive her to hospital came after this.

so the purpose of stander coming round could not have been to help drive her to hospital.

 

[jay-jay]

I do not recall hearing Mangena describe any of the bullet trajectories as going up. It appears to me that W is applying some ballistic theory to imply that one or more of the bullets exited the door in and upward trajectory. He said IIRC a variance of up to 4 degrees. W is trying to use diflection or deflection, I cannot determine which one, as his theory of this phenomenon. IOW He's making the bullet(s) change direction as they leave the door.

Just when you thought that OPs defense was ready to save his butt from the fire, W throws this in to the mix. LOL!!!

OK, thanks .. I see what's happening there now then and I do personally feel that W is trying to make the forensics fit OP's version (what with that about the change in bullet trajectory, and the fact that W changed what he said about Reeva sitting on the magazine rack and then after the break came back and said she was sitting on the floor). I'll stick with the trajectory going slightly downwards then, as that is how it appears to be .. the toilet door panels were thick enough to have recorded the angle of the bullet trajectory as they passed through them, so W can't really dispute that angle imo.

 

[JudgeJudi]

The general area above her elbow. The bullet completely fractured (broke in two) the bone, completely severed the artery, and blew a large entry and exit wound on either side, virtually amputating her right arm.

That just makes my skin crawl, and to know that he carried her for some distance with her arm like that.

 

[JudgeJudi]

That's it for me folks. Have a good night.