Trial Discussion Thread #37 - 14.05.12 Day 30

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Well, today was a fairly interesting day in court, it must be said.

For what it's worth, here's my take on proceedings. Thought it might help by giving an overview of sorts (copied, I must admit, from what I posted elsewhere). If not, I apologize!

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Firstly, one might do well to remember the basic template of a case such as this (that is, a case based essentially on the question of putative self defense). In South African law, I believe, that template is provided for by a case mentioned here before, that of S v De Oliveira. In that case, the accused, De Oliveira, was convicted of murder when he shot a man in the driveway of his house. (Simply put, he was awakened one afternoon by his wife who told him, in some consternation, that there were "unknown black men" in his driveway. He got his gun and shot at them through a window, killing one of these men.)

De Oliveira's defense was that he thought he was acting in self defense, that he may have been mistaken in this belief, but that his mistake was nevertheless pardonable. If this line of defense had been accepted, De Oliveira would have been acquitted of murder; instead, the court dismissed it.

One of the major reasons for this dismissal was the fact that De Oliveira himself did not testify on his own behalf. As a result, the court had to rely on other evidence to try and establish his state of mind at the time of the shooting. The court argued that no reasonable man in similar circumstances would have believed that his life was in imminent danger. To this it added that, since De Oliveira himself did not testify, there were no "proved facts or circumstances" existing which would justify a different conclusion.

Now, what of Pistorius? Well, firstly, he, unlike De Oliveira, did testify. The problem is, however, that his testimony became something of a mess. Effectively, Pistorius attempted to not just bolster his putative self defense claim, but also to try and claim that he did not have the intent to kill anyone. The two do not work well together at all: putative self defense means that the accused defended himself - and intentionally defended himself - in the mistaken belief he was under imminent threat. It therefore requires intent. If one has no intent - if one did not mean to defend one's self - it cannot be self defense, putative or otherwise.

Pistorius's testimony, therefore, put his lawyers in a pickle, and I believe that Vorster was called in - probably at a very late date - to help them get out of that.

The next problem, however, was that Vorster overshot her mark (or at least was made to look like she did, by a rather inspired prosecution). She was clearly brought in to try to explain why Pistorius actually felt that he was under threat - why he believed, and justifiably (if mistakenly) believed - that he had the right to defend himself. Instead, however, she raised the very awkward spectre of Pistorius not being quite sound of mind; of there being, in other words, a case for diminished responsibility. (In fact, in one disastrous moment, she accepted that Pistorius's disorder made him "dangerous" when handling a gun.)

And this, of course, has led to the very unexpected idea that Pistorius may be hustled off to some sort of psychiatric hospital for evaluation.

All in all I very much doubt such an evaluation is in the cards. I also feel, however, that Vorster's testimony will not help Pistorius one iota. Having said that, though, this is, as Vorster herself said, up to the court.

_________
 
how long has she spent with him? ...has she not noticed the pathological lying...

She seemed to be representing what OP told her as objective truth. At one point, Nel her talking about OPs fight (vs. flight) response. She said it was worse when someone is trapped and has no where to go. Nel said, he did have. She immediately came back in OP's defense and said, no he couldn't because his mobility on his stumps was so poor. It was like she bought his entire story/lie vs. here is what the accused has told me.

.
 
Did she really say that pre verbal children can't be soothed by their mothers after an operation? Sounds like cr*p to me. Pre verbal infants continuously make their needs known in a myriad of ways and responsive parents will have no difficulty working out when their babies need soothing.

I do love this sort of testimony though.

My son is the same age as OP. When he 4 he had major surgery and the only place we weren't allowed to go, as parents ( in the US) was in the operating room. We went right up to the OR door with him and we were right there when he was wheeled back out and into recovery. We were allowed to stay 24-7 in his room.

Maybe if I had pushed a little they'd even have let me scrub in and hold his hand IN the OR like they do for couples during a C-section delivery.

This is not 1950.
 
Thank you very much.

Yes she was speaking generally not specifically but it is obvious that Oscar was a danger with a gun at this point, that is the purpose of Dr. Voster's testimony to state just that. He did not know he was a danger, now he knows.

I thought you meant she specifically stated that Oscar was a danger to himself or others right now and should be sectioned.

I personally am not convinced that he is not a danger to himself.

BBM

NO, she was also speaking SPECIFICALLY about Oscar:

Nel: ....you also said he's suffering from a general anxiety disorder and that is worsening.

Vorster~ Yes I believe it is increasing in intensity.

and then after speaking specifically about Oscar, she jumps to making a general statement, which would INCLUDE Oscar.
 
There are posters here who implied Kim Myers was lying and that OP never said anything to her. And the other people who witnessed it were brushed off because they weren't 'impartial'. Now why would Roux repeat a comment that was never made?

He didn't repeat it, and David Smith (reporter/tweeter) is clearly out to get OP.

Or, Roux will clarify tomorrow so that what was actually said is explained to mean something else entirely.

<forgot to use my sarcasm font!>
 
Given the way his trial is going, it seems very normal for OP's level of anxiety to be increasing the closer he gets to the day of reckoning.
 
My son is the same age as OP. When he 4 he had major surgery and the only place we weren't allowed to go, as parents ( in the US) was in the operating room. We went right up to the OR door with him and we were right there when he was wheeled back out and into recovery. We were allowed to stay 24-7 in his room.

Maybe if I had pushed a little they'd even have let me scrub in and hold his hand IN the OR like they do for couples during a C-section delivery.

This is not 1950.

maybe of note: even though both op parents apparently did extensive research into the merits/whys/wherefores of the double amputation. and why doing it sooner rather than later would be of benefit. and how difficult a decision it was...

... the father was then apparently at a business meeting on the day of the surgery.

which i found amazing.
 
BBM

It's not like Nel picked a random man on the street and offered the application for mental review. OP is, in fact, on trial for murder, and has admitted to killing his girlfriend. That in itself says he is a danger to others, at times anyway.

Thanks, I was simply saying that an application does not necessarily mean anything and I do not believe it will be granted unless Oscar is deemed suicidal.



The way it works in many states is that the involuntary section must be made by 3 knowledgeable people (or a police officer) being willing to say that a person is a danger to themselves or others. The person is generally then admitted for 72 hours during that period it will be determined by mental health professionals if the person warrants a longer stay, it generally seems to be a 30 day stay, if they are kept in a facility (regardless of their will) and in that 30 days they are hoped to be restored to mental health through medications and therapy. If they are still a danger after 30 days they remain institutionalized.
 
BBM

So you believe that your original definition of delusion is correct, despite evidence to the contrary?

No I believe my definition of Delusion is correct because it is how the DSM defines Delusion and the DSM is The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It is the bible of psychiatry.
 
He didn't repeat it, and David Smith (reporter/tweeter) is clearly out to get OP.

Or, Roux will clarify tomorrow so that what was actually said is explained to mean something else entirely.

What do you think he actually said? "I'll race you to the door"?
 
http://pro.psychcentral.com/2013/dsm-5-changes-schizophrenia-psychotic-disorders/004336.html

Non-bizarre delusions were the requirement. Bizarre delusions has been added.

Respectfully, 'everyone being an FBI agent' is not impossible due to physics. It's just improbable.


I think it can be safely argued that it is a physical impossibility for everyone to be an FBI member which if someone held that belief wold fall under the category of Delusions are fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.
 
He didn't repeat it, and David Smith (reporter/tweeter) is clearly out to get OP.

Or, Roux will clarify tomorrow so that what was actually said is explained to mean something else entirely.
I don't think Roux will clarify this. It will open up another can of worms and take any arguments off point....the point for the next proceedings being; will or wont Oscar be committed to a psyhic hospital for clinical evaluation.
 
Thanks, I was simply saying that an application does not necessarily mean anything and I do not believe it will be granted unless Oscar is deemed suicidal.



The way it works in many states is that the involuntary section must be made by 3 knowledgeable people (or a police officer) being willing to say that a person is a danger to themselves or others. The person is generally then admitted for 72 hours during that period it will be determined by mental health professionals if the person warrants a longer stay, it generally seems to be a 30 day stay, if they are kept in a facility (regardless of their will) and in that 30 days they are hoped to be restored to mental health through medications and therapy. If they are still a danger after 30 days they remain institutionalized.

You are about to get hammered on this by those that understand the legal Acts and Subsections of the SA Criminal Code. I just wanted to give ya a heads up. They will no doubt point out to you that you are conflating a person being considered an immediate danger to himself or others with the SA criminal law; they are two separate and different things.

We shall (pun intended) see in 9-10 hours whether or not Judge Masipa grants Mr. Nel's application. My money says that she shall! :wink:
 
Just wondering what his excuse to get out of prison free would then be for the gun and ammo incidents... or, could he get sent to some institution until he is considered fit to re-enter society on the murder charge(thus avoiding responsibility for that) and then serve those "other" convictions in prison?

Sure you can work that tidsy little conundrum out... follow the flowchart!
 
Thanks, I was simply saying that an application does not necessarily mean anything and I do not believe it will be granted unless Oscar is deemed suicidal.



The way it works in many states is that the involuntary section must be made by 3 knowledgeable people (or a police officer) being willing to say that a person is a danger to themselves or others. The person is generally then admitted for 72 hours during that period it will be determined by mental health professionals if the person warrants a longer stay, it generally seems to be a 30 day stay, if they are kept in a facility (regardless of their will) and in that 30 days they are hoped to be restored to mental health through medications and therapy. If they are still a danger after 30 days they remain institutionalized.

BIB - The application for a psych evaluation isn't because he may be suicidal, it's because the defense psychiatrist is claiming diminished responsibility because of an anxiety disorder!
 
BIB - The application for a psych evaluation isn't because he may be suicidal, it's because the defense psychiatrist is claiming diminished responsibility because of an anxiety disorder!

Which would now make it his Third Line of defence. Which Nel pointed out yesterday.
 
He didn't repeat it, and David Smith (reporter/tweeter) is clearly out to get OP.

Or, Roux will clarify tomorrow so that what was actually said is explained to mean something else entirely.
BBM - there's no room left on the list!
 
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