Trial Discussion Thread #39 - 14.05.14 Day 32

[G.bng]

I have to say that cuts in funding hit mental health services very hard. In our area of the UK, mental health nurses now visit patients in their homes rather than the patients having to attend a facility. There are horror stories of nurses being attacked while on the job. Supposedly, our government tells us this is caring within the community - a way of getting people to front line services. But every assessment, a nurse is walking into a patient's home to unknown risks too.

Strangely though, the NHS has sold off many of its properties, closed facilities communities have fought to keep open, and rent other buildings with a hefty price tag.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-25230298

**Sorry for the kinda O/T - it just didn't surprise me they'd look to outpatient to avoid a 6 month wait, which also doesn't surprise me, because our own mental health services are under such severe strain too. JMO**

Masipa said it should not be a second punishment so could she have not also added as well as to save on costs in such difficult financial times many countries are going through. She has inferred this in respect of the delays at least. And don't forget the SA judiciary agreed Shrien Dewani could also go to a better place than he may have been sent.

 

[Val1]

This whole trial has been surreal at times. Truth really is stranger than fiction at times.

Yes, like when the Dr said OP and his father had a falling out when OP was 19... yet according to media reports it was only since OP killed RS that things got bad, presumably because he was "bad press" for his son...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pistorius-father-son-carries-gun-government-won-protect-whites-article-1.1279832

Henke Pistorius’ statements do not “represent the views of Oscar or the rest of the Pistorius family.”

http://www.sport24.co.za/Multimedia/Olympics2012/Pistorius-at-the-Olympics-20120806

Father Henk Pistorius, left, and surgeon Gerry Versfeld watch double-amputee runner Oscar Pistorius compete in the Olympics from Johannesburg. (AP Photo/Jon Gambrell)

 

[zoran]

What if it backfires on Nel? What happens if OP convinces the doctors that he is anxious, scared, fearful, cannot help but be afraid all of the time. Is paralyzed with fear, in fact. Will that affect the outcome?

I thought about this and I think you have a strong point. OP is DESPERATE now and has nothing left to lose. If he had any faith in his legal team then its gone now

It would not surprise to see him break away from further instructions and try to play the crazy card and to be honest if anyone could pull it off it would be oscar

 

[DebinGA]

So if he's malingering, he only has to keep up appearances so many hours a day, 5 days a week? :waitasec:

Courtwatcher tweet above said 5 a.m. - 9 p.m. and OP has described his trouble sleeping at night even premurder.

 

[Jake18]

I don't think it is, really .. this case is quite simple, and quite common .. i.e. Reeva being in an abusive relationship with OP, they argue, he turns violent and kills her. Nothing strange or unusual about it at all, imo. The trial itself has been surreal, but the actual case isn't at all strange.

Actually, that's fair. The actual truth is simple.

Oscar's "version" - men screaming like women as demonstrated by women wailing like the man they heard crying, sound tests reconstructed in recording studios, everything about Dixon, Wolmaans (?sp) in the toilet, defence pysch testimony resulting in OP being involuntarily assessed, the missing phone and watch etc has surreal at times though. Not to mention Carice leaving the crime scene with the bag, Frank and OP's "everything's fine".

 

[rachael123]

Thank God for Wild About Trial,I was able to watch the Judge give her ruling.So the trial will be on hold for 30 days.Hope the Doctor's test Oscar for lying also.

 

[BritsKate]

Masipa said it should not be a second punishment so could she have not also added as well as to save on costs in such difficult financial times many countries are going through. She has inferred this in respect of the delays at least. And don't forget the SA judiciary agreed Shrien Dewani could also go to a better place than he may have been sent.

I heard what she said. It's not been decided yet and I really don't have overly strong feelings either way - only that the concession, by the State, for outpatient because of the strain on mental health services wouldn't surprise me. I don't believe Dewani is a 'normal' defendant either though. Most defendants who are sectioned don't get to live on the hospital grounds in a camper van or are afforded specially prepared meals by their own chef. I don't believe exceptions to rules, and special privileges afforded only a handful of defendants, should be displayed as what is the 'norm' for most.

SA needed to extradite Dewani and he, in conjunction with his legal team, extorted the mental health services of two countries to his gain.

But that again is JMO and obviously O/T to this case. I'll be happy to debate this in the appropriate thread for that case.

 

[Cherwell]

I'm glad to hear that OP will be a evaluated by a panel of experts - three psychiatrists and one psychologists, if I heard correctly. There's a section in the DSM-5 that covers impulse control and conduct disorders. Interestingly, ASPD is listed both in this section and under personality disorders section. There's a good summary on Wikipedia with embedded links to definitions of the disorders that fall within that category.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5#Disruptive.2C_impulse-control.2C_and_conduct_disorders

Disruptive, impulse-control, and conduct disorders

Some of these disorders were formerly part of the chapter on early diagnosis, oppositional defiant disorder; conduct disorder; and disruptive behavior disorder not otherwise specified became other specified and unspecified disruptive disorder, impulse-control disorder, and conduct disorders. Intermittent explosive disorder, pyromania, and kleptomania moved to this chapter from the DSM-IV chapter "Impulse-Control Disorders Not Otherwise Specified".

Antisocial personality disorder is listed here and in the chapter on personality disorders (but ADHD is listed under neurodevelopmental disorders).

Symptoms for oppositional defiant disorder are of three types: angry/irritable mood, argumentative/defiant behavior, and vindictiveness. The conduct disorder exclusion is deleted. The criteria were also changed with a note on frequency requirements and a measure of severity.

Criteria for conduct disorder are unchanged for the most part from DSM-IV. A specifier was added for people with limited "prosocial emotion", showing callous and unemotional traits.

People over the disorder's minimum age of 6 may be diagnosed with intermittent explosive disorder without outbursts of physical aggression.Criteria were added for frequency and to specify "impulsive and/or anger based in nature, and must cause marked distress, cause impairment in occupational or interpersonal functioning, or be associated with negative financial or legal consequences"

Also, more detail here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5_c...rders_in_DSM-5

But particularly, this extract:

Intermittent Explosive Disorder

Rapid onset of recurrent impulsive, verbally or physically aggressive outbursts typically lasting less than 30 minutes, usually in response to minimal provocation by an intimate or associate, and causing marked impairment in functioning or legal consequences.

OK, so there are all these "disorders", but couldn't it be possible that he's just a nasty piece of work?

 

[acejase]

Then we have really crappy doctors in SA because he is faking it!

But given he has been faking it throughout the trial and the majority of us can see through his BS, I am sure it will be fine

now that he has been let home and it will take a week to sort this assessment out what is stopping him from paying someone like dr v to help him with what he has to do to fool these people,He paid for acting lessons so whats stopping him paying to get a heads up with this too ....dont get me wrong i know nothing as to what they do in a psychiatric assessment but he has all this time now to prepare for it, Id thought he would be seen by the dr`s right away or taken somewere so he cant get help with it before he is seen by the dr`s

 

[Val1]

Courtwatcher tweet above said 5 a.m. - 9 p.m. and OP has described his trouble sleeping at night even premurder.

bbm - Yea, it's amazing that caffeine can keep one awake or at the least disturb your sleep ... speaking of which..fftobed::seeya:

 

[Fuskier]

My pleasure jay-jay. I did think some of your recent posts displayed some pessimism or resignation so am pleased to give you a smile. I think it's all good really. I'd prefer the assessments to take place with him under supervision but I think the state will do their best to ensure that it's not just done according to the Pistorius clan's wishes. IMO M'lday would not take this step only to let it then be half-as...ed.

A question: is the aunt who is the forensic psychologist married to the uncle or a blood relative? I think it would be a bit of a concern if she is living with him and able to 'help' him but maybe that's unavoidable and again, I have every confidence that Nel will attempt to make the assessment stringent and comprehensive.

These types of 'influences' are a concern which hopefully Nell will address. Ideally, a full inpatient stay of 30 days for comprehensive assessment and diagnosis would be best IMO.

 

[aoibhinn]

OK, so there are all these "disorders", but couldn't it be possible that he's just a nasty piece of work?

Well, there's that too! He's shown himself to be a despicable creature, with all of that carry on in court. Nevermind the crime of shooting Reeva and all of his other bad and irresponsible behaviours.

I am curious about Judge Masipa's comment how this evaluation is contrary to the wishes of the defence. I will be interested to see what the findings of the independent evaluation panel will be. My guess is that they don't want anyone probing too deeply into the mind of OP.

 

[BritsKate]

OK, so there are all these "disorders", but couldn't it be possible that he's just a nasty piece of work?

Absolutely. Not everyone with a personality disorder commits a crime and not every criminal has a personality disorder. However, quite a few nasty pieces of work who do go on to commit crime could be diagnosed with a personality disorder. Anywhere from 50-78%, according to several studies, so there is a very clear correlation.

JMO

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I heard what she said. It's not been decided yet and I really don't have overly strong feelings either way - only that the concession, by the State, for outpatient because of the strain on mental health services wouldn't surprise me. I don't believe Dewani is a 'normal' defendant either though. Most defendants who are sectioned don't get to live on the hospital grounds in a camper van or are afforded specially prepared meals by their own chef. I don't believe exceptions to rules, and special privileges afforded only a handful of defendants, should be displayed as what is the 'norm' for most.

SA needed to extradite Dewani and he, in conjunction with his legal team, extorted the mental health services of two countries to his gain.

But that again is JMO and obviously O/T to this case. I'll be happy to debate this in the appropriate thread for that case.

I'll be over on the Dewani thread as well . I just cannot believe how he was allowed his camper van ,Appalled me at the time when i read it .Treat everyone the same is the only fair system and it is terrible to see favouritism and exceptions.

 

[soozieqtips]

OK, so there are all these "disorders",
but couldn't it be possible that he's just a nasty piece of work?

BBM - yes! And don't forget that Nel asked Dr V if the accused could simply be lying - and Dr V said "yes, he could be lying."

 

[thewagesofsin]

This and other things that have happened are all signals to me that judge already knows what she is gonna do at the verdict. And it's not gonna be pretty for OP when the verdict comes.



Right now, she is just covering her bases, being really careful.

I was going to say this myself. Did the judge let something slip when she mentioned punishing him twice? I'll give her the benefit of the doubt but it made me wonder.

Also, slightly off-topic, if Oscar was an ordinary bloke making minimum wage, wouldn't he have been sitting in jail this whole time? I imagine a pysch ward would feel like a holiday in comparison.


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[soozieqtips]

I don't think it is, really .. this case is quite simple, and quite common .. i.e. Reeva being in an abusive relationship with OP, they argue, he turns violent and kills her. Nothing strange or unusual about it at all, imo. The trial itself has been surreal, but the actual case isn't at all strange.

Agreed. The only thing complicated is OP trying to align his version/versions with the State's evidence. Murder of an intimate partner happens every day all over the world. Nothing complicated about it at all.

 

[DebinGA]

OK, so there are all these "disorders", but couldn't it be possible that he's just a nasty piece of work?

Yes, and the strain of trying to hide that fact 24/7 must be enormously stressful, i.e. anxiety heightening.

 

[soozieqtips]

I was going to say this myself. Did the judge let something slip when she mentioned punishing him twice? I'll give her the benefit of the doubt but it made me wonder.

Also, slightly off-topic, if Oscar was an ordinary bloke making minimum wage, wouldn't he have been sitting in jail this whole time? I imagine a pysch ward would feel like a holiday in comparison.


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BBM - yes. But OP is 'special' so he gets to go on holiday, make new relationships (while still grieving for his Baba), and live at Uncle's luxury mansion instead of in :jail: like other 'non-special' murderers.

 

[DebinGA]

BBM - yes! And don't forget that Nel asked Dr V if the accused could simply be lying - and Dr V said "yes, he could be lying."

Dr. Vorster seemed very fair imo. She even volunteered that someone ending a relationship might trigger a reaction (fight or flight?) from the GAD party.