Trial Discussion Thread #39 - 14.05.14 Day 32

[MsMarple]

I’m sorry but I honestly don’t know how to say it any clearer so I will repeat myself one more time and then I will be done explaining my position on this matter. Again, I think Roux was surprised that Nel asked for a section, I think he assumed Nel would ask for the chance for a State psychiatrist to evaluate Oscar. So Roux was earnestly arguing against the referral, specifically and especially the institutionalization of Oscar.

If Nel had simply asked for an evaluation, Oscars GAD (or lack thereof) would have been a footnote in the good judges ledger. Now Nel by demanding a section has made Oscar’s mental health central to the case. If those appointed to evaluate Oscar come back with a mental health defect that they say could very well have compromised Oscars ability to act in a reasonable fashion on that AM coupled with his physical deformity you bring the defense much closer to an “extreme situation” that the judge can use to determine culpability.

The good docs may come back and say that they find no defect in Oscar and that in their opinion he is looking for secondary gain by his antics.

IMO Oscar has a maladaptive personality what mental health issue, if any, is behind that faulty personhood I wouldn’t wager to guess.

Respectfully, OP's testimony made the state of his mental health central to the case, not Nel's request for further investigation.

 

[jay-jay]

I know, I agree with your thought process. But this is a 30 day observation set out by the SA criminal law, not a visit to your family psychiatrist for some help understand your fear of flying.

~snipped~

BIB .. I'm not talking about that type of thing, and am a bit taken aback that you've belittled the point I was making, especially considering that things like psychometric testing along with a whole raft of other tests are actually what psychologists *normally* use in determining and diagnosing a psychiatric condition. Sorry it's only wiki, but it's concise .. take your pick from this list Categorysychiatric assessment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[weeeva]

Bad grammar?

That just isn't true. GAD has a very broad spectrum associated with it - and millions of people diagnosed with it live relatively normal lives with the ability to maintain employment, relationships, health, etc.

However, I'm speaking strictly from a legal aspect. As I've posted repeatedly the legal burden for an involuntary defence is notoriously high. Quite often, a defendant that successfully uses that affirmative defence has a documented, overt history of psychiatric issues going back months and years before the crime is committed. Their conditions are usually so severe they cannot conceal them from others and struggle to function with everyday life - and if we are to believe his defence psychiatrist that his diagnosis of GAD is accurate then we also have to believe her when she stated his condition does not rise to that level.



And please trust me when I say I know from first hand experience just how devastating and destructive a psychiatric disorder can be to everyone involved. Especially ones that are totally resistant to treatment.

Yes I do agree with you for the most part, but many people with mental health issues do slip throw the net until something significant happens to bring it to light. It is true that many people with the disorder struggle to function with everyday life, but there will be others who's disorder will manifest itself in different ways.
I do trust that you have first hand experience of mental disorders. It was not my intention to offend you.

 

[jay-jay]

legal guy on sky news said he will be asked by all the Dr's his version of events that morning 14th febuary.. They will seek discrepancies and look for signs of mental health issues
They will then be asked to write a report upon which they all agree on
And advise treatment as needed
This is a criminal senerio so it will not be a soft test for op although maybe easier than facing Nel.

I just find that a really weird way of determining whether a person has a mental condition, and what type of mental condition they have, quite honestly.

 

[katydid23]

Then why did he?

Maybe Nel is convinced that OP is not mentally ill enough to be shown leniency by the court and he wants to put it on the record.

 

[Fuskier]

I could imagine, uncle arnold and siblings and the rest of the family, the PR agency, the personal psychologist and at least the remaining friends are very relieved, someone has taken from them to send OP to a thorough psychological examination. Possibly they already 10 years or so wanted to do so, but couldn't because they didn't dare to suggest that to OP.
I could think, they are tired of always taking care of him and always trying to prevent outbursts.
<respectfully snipped>.

Agreed. It is probable that they may feel relieved that the Court has taken the onus for this decision out of their hands. The defendant's actions had caused stress all round IMO.

 

[Zuri]

If OP does truly have PTSD, chances are he can remember every single detail of what happened and it plays over and over and over like a continuous video loop. If he is found to have PTSD, then any of his statements where he says he can't remember, are more than likely falsehoods. The majority of those who have PTSD can recall events like they were yesterday, even decades later. JMV

 

[DebinGA]

I should've been more specific about that .. it was announced on the 24th February 2013 that he was stand trial for the homicide of a woman http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21563911 .. so maybe it was only confirmed to the family a couple of weeks before that (i.e. around the same time as this 'hurdle' thing)?

From jay-jay's link:

On Sunday, a representative of the Pistorius family said they sent two bouquets of flowers to Ms Steenkamp's family the day before her funeral.One was from Oscar and the other from the Pistorius family and both had handwritten notes, she said. On Saturday Ms Steenkamp's mother June said she had received the flowers."But what does it mean?" she asked. "Nothing.

I can't imagine a killer's family sending the press such news.

 

[Feynman]

Reminds me if the Anders Breivik trial in Norway. The judge ordered a comprehensive psych study by independent psychologists and them didn't like their findings so commissioned another psych study by a different team.

Not surprisingly they came to 2 opposite conclusions re: insanity

And insanity would IMO be among the easiest findings in this field. So if they can't do that, then ...

 

[katydid23]

Well I'm not going to call or text my friend but my best guess would be because Oscar's mental health having anything to do with the events of the morning that Reeva was killed would have been scoffed at by the state. Roux has effectively through Nel made Oscars mental health that morning a far bigger focal point in the trial than it would have been if both the state and defense simply put psychiatrists in the box who had interviewed Oscar.

True, but Nel doubled down, and made a stand here. He is hoping to take the 'mental health defense' completely off the table. Roux was planning to rely upon mental health issues as an excuse for lenience, and had an expert in Flight or Fight waiting in the wings.

This is a gamble on Nel's part, but he must have decided it was worthwhile and the odds were in his favor.

The panel of attorneys on Whoopwhoop had some interesting things to say. Apparently, this referral will be a trove of riches to Nel. He will have access to previously closed medical info and personal life history and several more in depth interviews concerning the night in question. The panel seemed to think it was a huge win for Nel for those reasons alone, discounting what the mental evaluation finds.

 

[aa9511]

Hi all,
One thing I do not understand is, why didn't the defense do all of this (psychological testing) before the trial??

 

[Carmelita]

I just find that a really weird way of determining whether a person has a mental condition, and what type of mental condition they have, quite honestly.

It is my understanding that the panel is not only going to render an opinion on whether or not Oscar has a mental defect, they are also going to render an opinion on whether or not that defect (if one or more is found) played a role in the events of that AM when Reeva was killed by Oscar.

 

[soozieqtips]

From jay-jay's link:

I can't imagine a killer's family sending the press such news.

The same family who leaked the news of the 'private' memorial OP was holding for Reeva.

 

[lithgow1]

The victim was a 3 year old boy named Seville Kent. Won't tell you who murdered him in case you want to read the book..." The Suspicions of Mr. Whicher" by Kate Summerscale. It's a non fiction book but it reads like a who-done-it mystery. She takes many pages- long detours into historical trivia but I liked the book very much as a whole.

Haven't read that Orwell piece, but will look it up. Sounds jolly.
Thanks!

Ah I know of that one I think - the little boy was found in an outside privy? It was a very nasty case. I have a book on my kindle of Famous British Trials (or something like that) and it's in it. I think I recall who did it too (but won't spoiler) and remember now what you were saying about it capturing the attention of many armchair detectives. The fictional retelling sounds interesting so I'll see if its on kindle - sounds like it would be. The detours into setting, attitudes etc would interest me in any case as I like history in general.

Don't know why but English murder mysteries always seem to interest me the most - no offence to Lizzie Borden - and I find domestic murders the most interesting of all, perhaps because there is something in the home setting that we can recognise. Anyway thanks for the tip - I think I've done better cause I get a novel and you just get an essay, though it is by George.

 

[Carmelita]

I see this quite differently but chose your post since we've so often agreed in the past. I've really missed your input.

I think Oscar likes power and control. I believe he enjoys others being fearful of him. I find him to be egocentric, narcissistic, selfish, with a sense of entitlement, manipulative and callous. I think he's reckless, impulsive, and aggressive.

To me hypervigilance is disproven by the following:

- leaving his firearm unattended and out of sight.
- not fixing the broken window in his home.
- not closing the balcony doors.
- not fixing the lock on his bedroom door.
- not knowing if his alarm sensors were functioning properly.
- not having a prolific history of other incidents involving contacting security or police to express concerns over security issues.
- not securing ladders on his property.
- leaving his vehicle in the driveway overnight.

As to vulnerability, insecurity, and anxiety...I really struggle to reconcile that with careless disregard for others and how much he was able to accomplish. In fact, I just can't reconcile it. Believe me, I've tried. Further, the only evidence to support such comes directly from the accused and I don't believe his account any more than I believed Jodi Arias experienced intimate partner violence.

JMO

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

I think Oscar likes power and control. I believe he enjoys others being fearful of him. I find him to be egocentric, narcissistic, selfish, with a sense of entitlement, manipulative and callous. I think he's reckless, impulsive, and aggressive.

That describes many world class athletes.


Since you have listed 9 things that you believe disprove hyper vigilance I will list 9 things that lean toward hyper vigilance. In my opinion a list does not prove it one way or the other though;

Having a firearm in the home loaded with black talon bullets

Reinforcing the bedroom door with a cricket bat because the lock was working but weak

Having the glass in the house for the broken window and giving the contractor an order to fix it

Telling the contractor to secure the ladders ( I think we will have to disagree about his diligence on this one a bit because I believe since Oscar came from privilege and grew to even greater privilege he assumed that his orders to contractors would be carried out).

Having an alarm system that included different safeguards so if one part of the system wasn’t working there was still a working alarm

Living in a gated community

Almost always carrying a firearm

Rushing out with his gun drawn when his friend knocked over a fan

Going into combat mode because he thought his washing machine was an intruder



I guess it is a subjective matter.

 

[Feynman]

I think you're describing PTSD

It describes a lot of non PTSD situations too.

 

[lithgow1]

I knew it was bad lithgow1, but not that bad surely!!!!!!!!

I'm sure it was better than you thought. It was just you were wondering 'why' and I saw you had edited for grammar and being a jerk I saw an opportunity ....

 

[ColonelMustard]

Maybe the judge meant “punishment” more akin to the notion of suffering. In other words, if OP is suffering from a mental illness that's increasing in intensity it would be yet more punishment to make him sit in jail while waiting for a bed. If she doesn't view him as dangerous she could be concerned for his mental health.

Just a stray thought.

Without intention or malice, by using the term "punishment" within the context of a psychiatric / mental health evaluation, M'Lady did a huge disservice to the the global cause of normalizing mental illness and removing its stigma.

This was especially damaging because the whole world was watching, many of whom struggle and suffer with mental illness and shame, themselves, and/or have friends or family members who do.

In some way, perhaps by her tone or gentle facial expression, I felt her comment to OP came from a place of compassion. Yet, as I've said before, a great deal of damage can be done in the name of compassion.

 

[BritsKate]

I just find that a really weird way of determining whether a person has a mental condition, and what type of mental condition they have, quite honestly.

Really I think that's just going to be part of it - if SA is anything like my home state, court-ordered psychiatric evaluations usually rely on interviews, observation and multiple tests. For the latter, the two most often used are the MCMI or MMPI. I don't know what's standard though in SA. Depending on his scores on either of the more general, 'standardised' tests, more specified testing may be required as well.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

Yes he has but he must also have calculated the risk of the strategy. As others have mentioned, the state psychiatrist has observed OP during his entire time on the stand and would arguably have as much insight into how his mind works as Ms Meryl would have picked up in two brief consultations. I'm sure Nel would have consulted with him regarding this move.

And yes it could backfire on the state but it could also make OP's position much worse depending on the diagnosis plus he will be questioned repeatedly and intensely about the events of that night with much more leeway for the line of questioning than Nel could pursue and whatever info comes from that will be at the state's disposal and can be used when the proceedings resume. Pretty sure I am right about the last bit of the last sentence (heard or read it somewhere) but I may have heard what I wanted to.

BBM

Yes, I heard that same thing on whoop whoop radio, by a panel of attorneys. They described it as a potential 'treasure trove' for Nel. They said it opens previously closed doors to personal life history, medical info and in depth discussion of the night in question.