Trial Discussion Thread #40

[lithgow1]

I was wondering if the time was really 9am till 5pm and there was just a mix up in the times?

BUT I don't think it's fair that someone would get preferential treatment to become a 'day patient' for a referral like this. From what Dr. V. said - OP is DANGEROUS with a gun - he probably has access to one in his uncle's house.

They shouldn't have different rules just because someone is a celebrity and it's being televised. I see that's what the link is saying.

I just don't think the judge seems to know what she should about these things suggesting that he could be an outpatient.

That's a good point about maybe the times being transposed as 9 to 5 sounds more logical than 5 to 9. If it was 5 to 9 I'd be wanting to be an inpatient and I can't see them waking everyone up at 5 am to start the day's testing.

It will be interesting how much input into all this the actual doctors doing the testing have on how and when it will be conducted. I heard one psych person saying that it had never been done on an outpatient basis there before so if they have valid doubts as to outpatient suitability in terms of their end results one would hope M'lday would give that some good consideration.

 

[turaj]

In some video of Uncle Arnold posted upthread he claims Reeva was the first woman OP ever brought home to meet the family, and then only once. Arnold seems like a type A, take-charge guy who's likely micromanaging the defense, with Roux reduced to following UA's inexpert orders. I don't know who hired Roger Dixon, maybe Outwage, but that person has a lot to answer for. Ever since the Dixon debacle, the defense has been reeling and rudderless. The last minute addition of Dr. V indicates desperation, not calculation imo.

Uncle Arnold sounds just exactly like OP...to me he is very slippery and not at all to be taken at face value...I do think he is micro-managing the defense and no doubt finding "hired guns" as this latest one. To me he is not just fighting for his nephew's future but his own family reputation which is very important to him.

 

[DebinGA]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/the-unmaking-of-oscar-pistorius/article10585576/?page=all

Interesting March 2013 article I hadn't read on OP, especially that sports are given equal footing with academics in SA schools and how that enabled OP's rise and caused authorities to overlook his bad behavior over the years.

<modsnip>

 

[CriLondon]

Thanks so much Cri. To me he's the head of the family and a significant role model. I had a feeling that he was saying one thing to the camera, but was feeling something else, perhaps in recognition this could be getting worse, looking down and shaking his head throughout. I can see what you mean re anger. Must be so traumatic for the family, made more so by all the press lingering. :seeya:

You're welcome indeed! Thanks for asking my opinion!

You say ,looking down ... I'm pretty sure he was just looking to read out the statement and , being a 30odd seconds statement , one would think reasonable (again from a man that has faced interviews and cameras before) that such a short statement wouldn't need to be read whilst said . Especially in light of the fact that he states throughout that the family backs the judge's decision, so effectively a positive statement.

What concerns me the most about what i've seen in that clip aside from anger/frustration (anger alone could be explained , for argument's sake , let's say AP believes OP's version , knows that he is mentally sane and sees the judge's decision simply as a risk/hurdle to OP than one CAN be angry and see that decision as unfair) is contempt.

Contempt implies utter disregard and a feeling of moral/physical superiority towards someone/something.

That is what makes me think and would make me ask questions.

JMO

Thank you

 

[turaj]

IMO it wasn't an elaborate bluff by Roux - he argued too passionately against it, to the point where it could of backfired by M'lady choosing to support his arguments over Nel's.

I'm more in line with the 'tried to sneak it in but got caught out' theory. I also think it's very important that whatever comes out of this will not matter if the court chooses to disregard OP's version of events. Once this is done and dusted, assuming that he's found fit to resume and there's been no indications that he hasn't been through his testimony, it will all go back to the two competing versions and I've confidence that his will be rejected.

All it will take is one photo - the bedroom in the morning - to stand as evidence and his version is proven to be a lie. So until the defence bring witnesses to disprove that image then I'm not too worried. So far in terms of disproving elements of the state's case they've shown themselves to be all talk and no recreations.

I find it difficult to think that Roux was not aware that Gerri Nel would take this witness and new defense to support the OP version apart and come to the conclusion he did. These guys know each other very well and apparently the case law is clear...Roux knows that...I just firmly believe this is no surprise to him...and his very capable team...I want to know how it is decided where and when this happens.

I found the recent post about sports taking precedence over so many things in SA (probably applies to many other countries too) and people getting a pass if they are sports heros let alone one with a significant disability. I just don't think we can under estimate this thinking as this court case moves along. I like the judge and hope she is completely above this however if they come back and say he is anything other than fully mentally stable with anxiety not being a factor again I'm not sure she will be in a very bad position.

 

[Estelle]

Just to correct point no. 3. OP never said Reeva was asleep in his bail statement.

IIRC OP said in his bail application that they both went to bed at 10pm after Reeva had finished her yoga.

Can you clarify this please?

 

[Estelle]

I'm really racking my brain why, it could be it's inaudible and needs enhancement (this could be a problem), maybe it's prejudicial to the accused in that he didn't describe the injuries to Netcare, could be prejudicial to Netcare because they can't defend their advice to OP because he didn't describe injuries correctly. Judge decided not necessary for trial watchers to hear call for some obscure reason.

It's hard to know how to handle this because a Judge can listen to 911 call and decide whether it's admissible for a jury to hear if the DT objects, but how does it work when it's a Judge only trial? I haven't a clue.

But it sure as hell will prove whether he lied about the call, lied about their advice for him to drive her to hospital which of course is absolutely reprehensible. He should NEVER have moved her body. :banghead:



This could be true and not surprising, even though Netcare claims on their site that they do record calls.

IMHO

I have also found it very strange that this call has not been addressed in court. Do we know that it even was made? I have often wondered whether OP just dialled the number just so he could say he phoned them and did not speak to them so they hung up.

 

[CriLondon]

I have also found it very strange that this call has not been addressed in court. Do we know that it even was made? I have often wondered whether OP just dialled the number just so he could say he phoned them and did not speak to them so they hung up.

True ... like i asked in an earlier post : why then not have the operator testify?
Or , alternatively , have everyone testify that they never spoke to an OP that night.

Puzzling...:banghead:

 

[lithgow1]

IIRC OP said in his bail application that they both went to bed at 10pm after Reeva had finished her yoga.

Can you clarify this please?

I know your question is for Giles but here is a link to the bail statement that I re-read after G corrected me on something. The three mentions of RS are also on the previous page where I responded to Giles' correction.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-full-court-statement-1718677

 

[DebinGA]

... I found the recent post about sports taking precedence over so many things in SA (probably applies to many other countries too) and people getting a pass if they are sports heros let alone one with a significant disability. I just don't think we can under estimate this thinking as this court case moves along. I like the judge and hope she is completely above this however if they come back and say he is anything other than fully mentally stable with anxiety not being a factor again I'm not sure she will be in a very bad position.

~rsbm~
I read of m'lady telling a police officer she'd just sentenced to serve life for killing his wife, "You were supposed to be a protector" [but instead] "You were a killer" iirc. I hope and believe the judge will view OP's actions through the "to whom much is given, much is expected" lens, consider the evidence presented of OP's bad character [lying, blame shifting testimony, Reeva's msgs to him, etc.] and rule accordingly.

 

[patCee]

You're welcome indeed! Thanks for asking my opinion!

You say ,looking down ... I'm pretty sure he was just looking to read out the statement and , being a 30odd seconds statement , one would think reasonable (again from a man that has faced interviews and cameras before) that such a short statement wouldn't need to be read whilst said . Especially in light of the fact that he states throughout that the family backs the judge's decision, so effectively a positive statement.

What concerns me the most about what i've seen in that clip aside from anger/frustration (anger alone could be explained , for argument's sake , let's say AP believes OP's version , knows that he is mentally sane and sees the judge's decision simply as a risk/hurdle to OP than one CAN be angry and see that decision as unfair) is contempt.

Contempt implies utter disregard and a feeling of moral/physical superiority towards someone/something.

That is what makes me think and would make me ask questions.

JMO

Thank you

Yes, I note your point about the contempt. He's a man who is undoubtedly used to being in control with his numerous business' and wealth. I'm sure the loss of that in these court proceedings must feel unnerving to him. OP is fortunate that for whatever reason the family support seems to be unwavering.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Watch the redirect when you have time, IB, and all will be clear.

Vermeulen wasn't a good witness on cross because, its apparent, he's basing his opinion on the account of the accused (that the bat brought down the door) in cross.

In redirect, Nel cleans up the mess and clarifies the sequence.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

I have now watched the redirect but can only see that Nel refers to one small mark where he claims it could have happened before the shots. So it does infer there could have been some small damage to the door before the shots. I can still see why some feel that the State's position is that the bat noise may have been after the gun shots. I don't think Nel made enough of the damage to the door to refute Oscar's claims. Nel did not bring up any evidence in the redirect of the other marks on the door being made before the shots in order to take his point further. Perhaps he is "keeping his powder dry" for the summing up (I know summing up is not the correct term but I cannot for the life of me at this moment think what I should be writing).

Edit I would like to point out that (for those who perhaps don't know me) I am firmly in the bats before gunshot court. However, I do feel Nel has not made it abundantly clear what he thinks and others may, and some do, think otherwise.

 

[soozieqtips]

In some video of Uncle Arnold posted upthread he claims Reeva was the first woman OP ever brought home to meet the family, and then only once.

~snipped~

BBM - And yet Uncle Arnold (or someone else from the P family) said something like they were suffering as much as the Steenkamps over Reeva's loss. I remember thinking that was a comment which should never have been made. It was insensitive (surprise surprise) and total BS. In what universe could Reeva have meant as 'much' to them as she meant to her own family, who had known her all her life - not just met her once!! So insincere that I needed a row of sick buckets.

 

[patCee]

~snipped~

BBM - And yet Uncle Arnold (or someone else from the P family) said something like they were suffering as much as the Steenkamps over Reeva's loss. I remember thinking that was a comment which should never have been made. It was insensitive (surprise surprise) and total BS. In what universe could Reeva have meant as 'much' to them as she meant to her own family, who had known her all her life - not just met her once!! So insincere that I needed a row of sick buckets.

Agreed, and think of RS' family here:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-uncle-3258916

 

[luvmygarden]

I have a question. What window was the ladder under? After Frank came into the picture as residing at OP'S I am curious to know if he assisted Oscar very quickly and moved the ladder to set up the fear factor. Oscar keeps saying he had his eyes on toilet door and the window where the ladder was. Was the ladder right outside the bathroom window?

 

[turaj]

~rsbm~
I read of m'lady telling a police officer she'd just sentenced to serve life for killing his wife, "You were supposed to be a protector" [but instead] "You were a killer" iirc. I hope and believe the judge will view OP's actions through the "to whom much is given, much is expected" lens, consider the evidence presented of OP's bad character [lying, blame shifting testimony, Reeva's msgs to him, etc.] and rule accordingly.

Agreed, and think of RS' family here:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-uncle-3258916

Saving a life or their family reputation and fortune? Aimee giving June S a letter...how much can this family take? You can just see on her face when so much b.s. is being put forth on the stand...from time to time she will comment to her friend wen it is really beyond the beyond. She is a very poised and put together woman and I think just tolerates the movements by OP's family trying to frankly make themselves feel better about the murder that their brother/nephew committed. she just wants to get justice for her daughter and get out of eye sight of this family ever again...what a nightmare. She is up against a very powerful family and so lucky to have Gerri Nel in charge.

 

[luvmygarden]

Oh and when did Oscar know the ladder was not put away? I have a hard time believing Oscar would leave his balcony door open knowing someone could move it to the balcony and come in. If Frank moved it the dogs wouldn't bark because they know Frank.

 

[patCee]

I have a question. What window was the ladder under? After Frank came into the picture as residing at OP'S I am curious to know if he assisted Oscar very quickly and moved the ladder to set up the fear factor. Oscar keeps saying he had his eyes on toilet door and the window where the ladder was. Was the ladder right outside the bathroom window?

This was taken from http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/oscar-pistorius-trial-days-9-and-10-crime-scene-photos/

This is a view of the bathroom window from the outside. Notice there is no ladder in this photo. Oscar claims he was afraid of this open window because workers had left a ladder outside of this window. Van Rensburg checked the window for signs of forced entry and there were none. He also inspected the window from outside to see if it would be possible for someone to gain entry from down below and he determined that it would not be possible.

[/ATTACH]

One of the many things with no definitive answers.

 

[kittychi]

Hi Cri I'd love to know your thoughts on this one of Uncle Arnold, if you get some time. It's the one when he spoke to the press outside court, after the last day hearing re mental health evaluation. To me he seems very agitated. It's very short so might not give too much else away.

https://www.facebook.com/Justice4ReevaSteenkamp/posts/620626281349278

LOL, that was worth watching just for the Poo-Pourri ad :floorlaugh:

 

[luvmygarden]

Thanks I was just going back to the beginning before OP made anymore enhancements to his story but now knowing there is a Frank that is elusive I'm trying to figure out how much OP could get done on his own. I felt like the ladder was just a fact to bolster his fear but it doesn't make sense, Didn't from the start. So with all information Oscar has deemed from trial witnesses his stories to the Dr.'s will be interesting and even more conflicting. Poor Oscar he has a big hill to climb with all his lies holding him back in the next month. Wish we were fly's on the wall during this next 30 days.