Trial Discussion Thread #40

[Cherwell]

I have now watched the redirect but can only see that Nel refers to one small mark where he claims it could have happened before the shots. So it does infer there could have been some small damage to the door before the shots. I can still see why some feel that the State's position is that the bat noise may have been after the gun shots. I don't think Nel made enough of the damage to the door to refute Oscar's claims. Nel did not bring up any evidence in the redirect of the other marks on the door being made before the shots in order to take his point further. Perhaps he is "keeping his powder dry" for the summing up (I know summing up is not the correct term but I cannot for the life of me at this moment think what I should be writing).

Edit I would like to point out that (for those who perhaps don't know me) I am firmly in the bats before gunshot court. However, I do feel Nel has not made it abundantly clear what he thinks and others may, and some do, think otherwise.

For the life of me I cannot see how it can be proved whether the door was hit by the bat before the shots were fired. If the bat struck the door in different places from the bullets, how could anyone tell? Just because the bat may have been used after the shots causing the crack, it doesn't mean it couldn't have been used before as well.

 

[Greater Than]

For the life of me I cannot see how it can be proved whether the door was hit by the bat before the shots were fired. If the bat struck the door in different places from the bullets, how could anyone tell? Just because the bat may have been used after the shots causing the crack, it doesn't mean it couldn't have been used before as well.

Besides forensic analysis of the crack through the one bullet hole, you're right, there's no way to prove with physical evidence which came first.

Each side is attempting to prove which came first based on the ear witnesses' testimonies of bangs/shots and screams.

I personally think it was bat strikes --> gunshots --> bat strikes.

 

[BritsKate]

Besides forensic analysis of the crack through the one bullet hole, you're right, there's no way to prove with physical evidence which came first.



Each side is attempting to prove which came first based on the ear witnesses' testimonies of bangs/shots and screams.



I personally think it was bat strikes --> gunshots --> bat strikes.

ITA and I may be in the minority but I'd thought Nel did enough on redirect to rehabilitate Vermeulen's testimony. Of course, it could just be that I was about to have a coronary on cross.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Besides forensic analysis of the crack through the one bullet hole, you're right, there's no way to prove with physical evidence which came first.

Each side is attempting to prove which came first based on the ear witnesses' testimonies of bangs/shots and screams.

I personally think it was bat strikes --> gunshots --> bat strikes.

ITA Greater Than! I have always thought bat strikes ---> gunshots ---> batstrikes. And like Britskate, I felt like I was in the minority with that opinion. Glad to discover I am not the only one who thought this.
:cow:

 

[Interested Bystander]

Hi Pat.

Thank you for the link , i watched it.
Unfortunately when i expand it to full screen , being not exactly HD, the image becomes a bit blurry and it's not exactly the best when you are looking for muscle movement.
Having said that , i can confirm that he is indeed nervous , he swallows quite a few times (i draw that from the fact that he's been in front of cameras quite a few times so i exclude that as a probability).

Of particular interest 0:08 (it is very fast , blink and you miss it sort of..) slightly pressed lips that indicate mild anger.

at 0:35-0:37 he swallows after making a statement on trusting the SA justice system . (Again he does swallow a lot through that whole statement, if he didn't i'd be inclined to think that there wasn't much confidence in the previous statement )

But mostly (and it is usually a bad feeling to have )0:41 , after he states there will be no question, slightly raised left corner of his mouth (asymmetrical smile): contempt

That (not too sure about that as he turns towards his right) was preceded by pressed lips as in containing slight anger/frustration.

Again , with micro-expressions it is crucial to keep in mind that an emotion that is noticed , without elaboration and follow-up questions is just what it is: an emotion. You can say it's there , not why.
That becomes a whole different matter .

For example i would definitely ask why the contempt, who was that for?
You can see it's there , but you don't know who it is felt for.
Was it towards a journalist there? Was it towards Masipa's decision?

JMO

Thanks!

I am a people watcher and find expressions fascinating but have no learned knowledge on the subject. I felt his lip pressing to which you refer was associated entirely with his swallowing rather than any anger. I did not detect it other than when he swallowed. I perceive the swallowing to be due to nerves. Many people do this when they are nervous. If one is very nervous a condition known as Globus pharyngis (also known as globus sensation) can occur and is often associated with an anxiety disorder. A Feeling of a lump in one's throat makes one swallow rather harder than normal even though there actually is no stricture. Lip pressing is associated with this problem. Now that would be interesting, given that Oscar (and his brother and sister - according to Prof Vorster - also suffer from anxiety). It used to be known as globus hystericus.

 

[patCee]

I am a people watcher and find expressions fascinating but have no learned knowledge on the subject. I felt his lip pressing to which you refer was associated entirely with his swallowing rather than any anger. I did not detect it other than when he swallowed. I perceive the swallowing to be due to nerves. Many people do this when they are nervous. If one is very nervous a condition known as Globus pharyngis (also known as globus sensation) can occur and is often associated with an anxiety disorder. A Feeling of a lump in one's throat makes one swallow rather harder than normal even though there actually is no stricture. Lip pressing is associated with this problem. Now that would be interesting, given that Oscar (and his brother and sister - according to Prof Vorster - also suffer from anxiety). It used to be known as globus hystericus.

I didn't know that OP's brother and sister suffer from anxiety. Re UA I do wonder what he's feeling nervous/anxious about. Could it have been the outcome of that day in court re Dr. V. Watching him in court he mostly looked still, calm and measured to me, sometimes with a slight smile, but not anxious. JMO

 

[TorisMom003]

I didn't know that OP's brother and sister suffer from anxiety. Re UA I do wonder what he's feeling nervous/anxious about. Could it have been the outcome of that day in court re Dr. V. Watching him in court he mostly looked still, calm and measured to me, sometimes with a slight smile, but not anxious. JMO

The brother could be suffering from anxiety because of the fallout to his own career/personal life due to his own killing of a woman. The sister could be suffering from anxiety because she is living in Uncle Arnold's house with OP and knows that her brother killed an innocent, unarmed woman in the toilet because he was very ticked off. I am curious as to when the two other siblings began having their anxiety.

MOO

 

[CriLondon]

I am a people watcher and find expressions fascinating but have no learned knowledge on the subject. I felt his lip pressing to which you refer was associated entirely with his swallowing rather than any anger. I did not detect it other than when he swallowed. I perceive the swallowing to be due to nerves. Many people do this when they are nervous. If one is very nervous a condition known as Globus pharyngis (also known as globus sensation) can occur and is often associated with an anxiety disorder. A Feeling of a lump in one's throat makes one swallow rather harder than normal even though there actually is no stricture. Lip pressing is associated with this problem. Now that would be interesting, given that Oscar (and his brother and sister - according to Prof Vorster - also suffer from anxiety). It used to be known as globus hystericus.

I did mention that i perceived his swallowing as nerves/being anxious in my post .However i also stated that i wouldn't associate it with being in front of the cameras ...so if you're reading out a positive statement on behalf of the family , where you state you are at ease with the court's decision to refer (and in prevoius instances i don't recall him being nervous or swallowing in front of the cameras during interviews, read=baseline) then why the nerves?

I see how one can perceive the lip-press with a subsequent motion (swallowing in this case) but at 0:08 firstly the lip-press i refer to i judge it to be about 1/4 of a second if that and secondly there's no swallowing after.

 

[Interested Bystander]

For the life of me I cannot see how it can be proved whether the door was hit by the bat before the shots were fired. If the bat struck the door in different places from the bullets, how could anyone tell? Just because the bat may have been used after the shots causing the crack, it doesn't mean it couldn't have been used before as well.

You are quite right but for bat hits after the gunshots would not the Stipps have reported this in their evidence, ie 3 sets of sounds? I thought they were pretty good witnesses and didn't miss much of what was going on.

 

[TorisMom003]

Oh and when did Oscar know the ladder was not put away? I have a hard time believing Oscar would leave his balcony door open knowing someone could move it to the balcony and come in. If Frank moved it the dogs wouldn't bark because they know Frank.

Apparently the dogs don't bark at anyone, known or unknown. The dogs never barked at police that early morning or EMS.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Apparently the dogs don't bark at anyone, known or unknown. The dogs never barked at police that early morning or EMS.

I thought that was interesting. They must be big softies. Quite unusual for their breed. I wonder whether they started up when all the other dogs started barking that night. The Stipps and Standers and possibly others reported that the dogs were barking (I assume they meant their own dogs).

 

[CriLondon]

I did mention that i perceived his swallowing as nerves/being anxious in my post .However i also stated that i wouldn't associate it with being in front of the cameras ...so if you're reading out a positive statement on behalf of the family , where you state you are at ease with the court's decision to refer (and in prevoius instances i don't recall him being nervous or swallowing in front of the cameras during interviews, read=baseline) then why the nerves?

I see how one can perceive the lip-press with a subsequent motion (swallowing in this case) but at 0:08 firstly the lip-press i refer to i judge it to be about 1/4 of a second if that and secondly there's no swallowing after.

Sorry if i quote myself , i just needed to add a detail to my last post.

The lip-press i refer to involves two muscles ( i'll keep it in "easier" terms as every muscle in our face is coded in F.A.C.S. manual) that are at the bottom/sides of the nostrils . If the anger manifested had been stronger the same muscles would have "flared" the nostrils and if anger gets even stronger you start to show teeth!

 

[G.bng]

More likely they're afraid of being accused of supporting it....

The link comes up as an error saying "Sorry, the video does not exist", could you have typed it wrongly perchance ?

 

[fox1lady]

BBM: IMO it can also be reasoned that Reeva, being a very kind and thoughtful person, would have seen OP struggling with fans and cords, on his stumps, and gone over to help him. In his version, Reeva has to have totally ignored him, and said nothing to him as she got up to go to the loo.

IMO...just not reasonably, possibly true.

After learning of what kind of person he is, I find it hard to believe that he got up to bring the fans in without saying anything to her. He did after all apparently ask her to bring them in before he went to sleep. He claims that she had gone to sleep as well which means the balcony doors were left open whilst they were both asleep.... are we supposed to believe that he would be ok with that?? Hell No ! :twocents:

 

[TorisMom003]

I thought that was interesting. They must be big softies. Quite unusual for their breed. I wonder whether they started up when all the other dogs started barking that night. The Stipps and Standers and possibly others reported that the dogs were barking (I assume they meant their own dogs).

We have three dogs, two of them puppies, and all three bark at someone knocking on the door or noises they hear outside. I find it very odd that OP's dogs don't bark at strangers and/or unusual noises they hear. Unless OP (or someone else) had trained them to not bark at people and noises. My mother has bought and put on bark collars for her three dogs, which IMO is a stupid idea. Why train a dog to not bark when a barking dog could alert you to danger in or around your home?

MOO

 

[Interested Bystander]

I didn't know that OP's brother and sister suffer from anxiety. Re UA I do wonder what he's feeling nervous/anxious about. Could it have been the outcome of that day in court re Dr. V. Watching him in court he mostly looked still, calm and measured to me, sometimes with a slight smile, but not anxious. JMO

Professor Vorster included in her testimony that Carl and Aimee had anxiety problems. I think Uncle Arnold probably had a very good day listening to Professor Vorster. However, I suspect he was rather taken aback, as was Roux, when Nel suddenly came up wanting an assessment. I think having to put a brave front on the fact that OP may indeed have a anxiety disorder or worse and possibly be admitted to a psychiatric hospital probably revved up his anxiety levels. Choosing to speak to reporters about the family's feelings no doubt added even more to this. MOO

 

[TorisMom003]

After learning of what kind of person he is, I find it hard to believe that he got up to bring the fans in without saying anything to her. He did after all apparently ask her to bring them in before he went to sleep. He claims that she had gone to sleep as well which means the balcony doors were left open whilst they were both asleep.... are we supposed to believe that he would be ok with that?? Hell No ! :twocents:

Some of us don't believe they ever went to sleep at all that night so the story about him falling asleep with the balcony doors open is a lie. Some of us also believe that he simply gave that story so that he "wouldn't or couldn't" see Reeva head to the bathroom. Since OP never takes full responsibility for any of his actions (wrongdoings) I can see him using the balcony excuse to try and once again get away with a crime he committed.

MOO

 

[TorisMom003]

Professor Vorster included in her testimony that Carl and Aimee had anxiety problems. I think Uncle Arnold probably had a very good day listening to Professor Vorster. However, I suspect he was rather taken aback, as was Roux, when Nel suddenly came up wanting an assessment. I think having to put a brave front on the fact that OP may indeed have a anxiety disorder or worse and possibly be admitted to a psychiatric hospital probably revved up his anxiety levels. Choosing to speak to reporters about the family's feelings no doubt added even more to this. MOO

Uncle Arnold (and family) really had no choice but to say to the media that he was happy that OP was going to be tested. Could he really say that he knew OP was mentally just fine and that he thought it would be a waste of time for OP to be tested? Uncle Arnold was between a rock and a hard place.

MOO

 

[Feynman]

Thanks, and the point you make is still valid. He never mentioned that Reeva was awake in his bail statement. This is a crucial detail he omitted for some reason!

Remember that the point of the bail affidavit is to get bail. A good attorney will do this by revealing just enough - and no more - to accomplish this. The more you can keep from the PT, the more off-balance they will be at trial (although it hasn't turned out that way). There is no reason to disclose all "crucial" details in the affidavit.

 

[Cherwell]

You are quite right but for bat hits after the gunshots would not the Stipps have reported this in their evidence, ie 3 sets of sounds? I thought they were pretty good witnesses and didn't miss much of what was going on.

I don't think there were any bat hits after the gunshots. The bat may have been used again, but not necessarily to hit the door. If it was used to pry the cracked panel out, this needn't have made much noise.