Trial Discussion Thread #40

[Estelle]

I believe the correct term is 'snipped'….. I am learning all the time on here!

Jay Jay - I was talking about this with a friend yesterday - what if the 'Independent' was not so 'Independent.' My response to them as it is to your point, is that whilst a lay person might think this a possibility, in reality, it cannot be so. As professionals, they should have a general census.

Remember the Autopsy? For the Prosecution, Pathologist Gert Saayman concluded that Reeva ate a couple of hours before her death. The defence team disagreed but their Pathologist, Reggie Perumal would not take take the stand. This was because before he left the Autopsy room, he & Saayman would have had a broad sense of agreement and unless he tailored his evidence, it would have been bad for the DT. (This explains why they got an Anaesthetist to testify instead.)

In short, the assessment results will have to be broadly similar otherwise the Assessors professional competency will be compromised.

I must say that I had read and assumed that their would be one report where they reached a consensus and I see that PatCee has already replied to that.

However, in the link which Cape Town Crim. posted on page 1, three social workers, a State and a Defence Advocate each gave different opinions.

Here is the link
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/killer-teen-taught-that-men-don-t-cry-1.1688381#.U3S8bdKSwwB

 

[CriLondon]

Just a quick question:

Was Reeva's phone , the one she took to the toilet , ever investigated? In the sense of : did she try to call somebody? friend or emergency?

I remember Nel during cross-exam. going as far as leading OP through the act of picking up Reeva's phone and just accepting OP's version that the screen was locked and he didn't know the password for it. I don't think Nel even challenged him on Reeva possibly trying to call for help hence why OP would want to check right away if Reeva had in fact managed to talk to someone or managed an emergency call....It would make sense that OP would try to ascertain whether Reeva had or not.

Just an angle that i don't think was covered by Nel , perhaps with good reason , based on Reeva's phone records , or lack thereof.

Anyone with an idea on this?

 

[Cherwell]

So the family had eight years of associated fame and now they could spend up to 25 years of associated infamy! :jail:

Oscar was a typical narcissistic loser in 2012!

Aha, the perfect catchphrase for OP!

"Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me !!!"



(courtesy of the late great Kenneth Williams)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvs4bOMv5Xw

 

[Carmelita]

I just came across this rather alarming photo

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...hotos-from-the-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial#8

Excuse my ignorance but what on earth is alarming about this photo?

 

[Cherwell]

Just a quick question:

Was Reeva's phone , the one she took to the toilet , ever investigated? In the sense of : did she try to call somebody? friend or emergency?

I remember Nel during cross-exam. going as far as leading OP through the act of picking up Reeva's phone and just accepting OP's version that the screen was locked and he didn't know the password for it. I don't think Nel even challenged him on Reeva possibly trying to call for help hence why OP would want to check right away if Reeva had in fact managed to talk to someone or managed an emergency call....It would make sense that OP would try to ascertain whether Reeva had or not.

Just an angle that i don't think was covered by Nel , perhaps with good reason , based on Reeva's phone records , or lack thereof.

Anyone with an idea on this?

There seems to be no evidence that she made or attempted to make a call, but there is no proof that she had the phone with her in the toilet.

As with almost everything, we only have Pistorius's word for it.

 

[Viper]

(my bold)

But he isn't in custody, he's on bail - so that won't apply.

I know. I was reading Panda's post while have my morning coffee and grabbed the two snips while packing my youngest teen's lunch. So I did not read that one snip as carefully as I should have. I hit the submit button and read it to see that he is on bail but had to run to take her to school, so no time to edit. I knew someone would clarify it. The more direct point that I saw in that snip is that OP is in their care and they can prescribe treatment if he is ill and they can have him committed to the psychiatric ward if they believe that he is a danger to himself or others. That was/is obvious to most, but some still need a "link." LOL!!!

That his trial testimony can be used in his evaluation is just awesome! Again, this was an obvious thing to most, but now we have a "link" that others can read.

Have to run again. Later.

 

[Hope4More]

BIB Do you not think this is as a result of OP changing his story? My guess is that any defence that was previously prepared would now contradict (or certainly not support) OP's latest version and has had to be shelved. Add to this OP's instructions (I would love to be a fly on the wall to his discussions with the defence team) and Roux is left to think on his feet with the inevitable consequences that we have seen.

Exactly!!!!!!! OP upped the ante when on the stand, deciding on his own to go for broke and to deny any responsibility for his decision to shoot. I think that forced Roux to double down on the anxiety thing. Now it had to be a serious enough disorder to justify a completely automatic non-thinking advance to danger and shooting.

I do not believe Roux has a hidden psych assessment of OP because I do not think he had any intention of "going there" until OP forced the issue. Seems to me the judge has seen for herself watching OP on the stand that OP absolutely has problems serious enough that he can"t control himself even on the stand, even when his own liberty is at stake.

 

[Hope4More]

Some posters have said that Nel hit the jackpot because of info about OP"s behavior leading up to Reeva"s death that has not been presented in court. Any links to that info? Is this rumor info or from a reliable source? Thanks!

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Just a final one for the day, before I face the rain and go for a run. Argghhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

This is an example of a finding: "The accused was ultimately examined by four experts as envisaged by section 79(1)(b) of the CPA, including a clinical psychologist. The panel unanimously concluded both that he was able to follow proceedings so as to make a proper defence and that, at the time of the commission of the offence, he was able to appreciate the wrongfulness of the act in question and to act in accordance with such appreciation."

Now importantly for us, the words: "unanimously concluded that both that he was ABLE TO FOLLOW PROCEEDINGS SO AS TO MAKE A PROPER DEFENCE......."

This the reason that Gerrie kept on 'erring' purposefully in order to get a reaction from Oscar, confirming that he was well aware of what was happening, and what was being asked. Oscar's testimony and cross (record) will be available to the panel. Oscar showed with all intent that he was following every sentence like a rock star........

M'lady also made sure she got this on record.

They thought they would be ensuring the record reflected the truth for an appeal....but yet here we are right now.

I'm starting to think that Gerrie is delighted the diminished responsibility etc came up at this stage. Saving time (years in fact) for sure.

Yet he will probably still apply for leave to appeal conviction and sentence on grounds that will blow us all away.

Have a great evening / afternoon / morning all.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Excuse my ignorance but what on earth is alarming about this photo?

Someone asked earlier who Brian Webber was. THAT'S HIM IN THIS PIC.

He is OP's instructing attorney.

 

[DebinGA]

I One incident alone - Tasha's - shows that this so-called Christian is quite capable of standing in the witness box and lying and yet you seem to think people being suspicious of him telling the truth indicates 'hate'?

Re Tasha's, OP's testimony contradicted two other witnesses - Darren Fresco and Kevin Lerena about what happened there. Both testified that 1) Fresco had warned OP that the gun was loaded and "one-up" and 2) OP had begged Fresco to take the blame. If one thing's for sure, it's that OP will be found guilty on that gun charge.

 

[Estelle]

Thanks for you long, informative post, CTC .. have snipped and just quoted a bit I want to ask about/make a point on.

Do we actually know whether there will be more than 3 on the panel?

RSBM



This gives a reasonable account of how the evaluation is prepared.
It's written as part of a master's dessertation so lots of useful diagrams and demography (pdf).

http://wiredspace.wits.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10539/10574/Desertation Corrected.pdf?sequence=1

Scroll down to 30 day observation period. Also includes a bibliography for those interested in more research.

ETA. note Dr V appears in the above bibliography at No. 103.

Thanks for this link. I scanned it and found this one to be interesting:

Some of the common characteristics of awaiting trial prisoners suspected of having a psychiatric illness includes:

• Odd or bizarre behaviour in court
• past or present substance abuse, including alcohol abuse;
• history of violence or threats of violence;
• past involuntary psychiatric commitments;
• persecutory delusions;
• acute psychotic episode(s);
• history of borderline, antisocial, or paranoid personality disorder;
• history of medication noncompliance;
• history of suicidal ideation or gestures;
• history of self-mutilation;

"Odd or bizarre behaviour in court" is one of the ones that Pistorius will be questioned about, as well as past violence and Dr Vorster said that Pistorius is a binge drinker when he is not training. .

 

[CriLondon]

There seems to be no evidence that she made or attempted to make a call, but there is no proof that she had the phone with her in the toilet.

As with almost everything, we only have Pistorius's word for it.

Thank you , keyword here is : no evidence she tried to call , hence Nel not attacking that angle as motive for OP to shoot.

And that is because the phone was not recovered in the toilet , correct?

 

[DebinGA]

Someone asked earlier who Brian Webber was. THAT'S HIM IN THIS PIC.

He is OP's instructing attorney.

Webber offered a revealing preview of the defense case when he answered press questions about whether OP would be testifying with, "We have no choice."

 

[Carmelita]

Someone asked earlier who Brian Webber was. THAT'S HIM IN THIS PIC.

He is OP's instructing attorney.

But what is alarming about the photo?

 

[lithgow1]

Re Tasha's, OP's testimony contradicted two other witnesses - Darren Fresco and Kevin Lerena about what happened there. Both testified that 1) Fresco had warned OP that the gun was loaded and "one-up" and 2) OP had begged Fresco to take the blame. If one thing's for sure, it's that OP will be found guilty on that gun charge.

True DebinGa. Incidents like that make most people suspicious of his veracity and those doubts are then used by some to try and back up claims of a bias towards him. I remember my grandmother telling me about the boy who cried wolf and it's a story older than all of our ages added together and still survives because of it's basic 'truth'. In one respect I don't blame him for lying - many people would in his postion, me too quite possibly - and we've all told a fib or two. But by the same token I wouldn't expect people to then believe me unquestionably if I were caught out numerous times nor could I expect any respect from them. Even my own family would be telling me to take responsibility for whatever it was I'd done rather than try and twist and turn my way out of it. Whatever happens to him he could have come out of this looking so much better as a human being and it's ironic IMO that his desperation to retain his once earned 'role model hero' status has ensured that for the vast majority that has gone for good.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Thanks for this link. I scanned it and found this one to be interesting:

Some of the common characteristic of awaiting trail prisoners suspected of having a psychiatric illness includes:

• Odd or bizarre behaviour in court
• past or present substance abuse, including alcohol abuse;
• history of violence or threats of violence;
• past involuntary psychiatric commitments;
• persecutory delusions;
• acute psychotic episode(s);
• history of borderline, antisocial, or paranoid personality disorder;
• history of medication noncompliance;
• history of suicidal ideation or gestures;
• history of self-mutilation;

"Odd or bizarre behaviour in court" is one of the ones that Pistorius will be questioned about, as well as past violence and Dr Vorster said that Pistorius is a binge drinker when he is not training. .

This is how Gerrie gets all that character evidence he couldn't use from Bachelor, Myers girls etc in throughout the back door. Previous behavior patterns - accused persons are protected from this at all costs....unless.....and in the backdoor it comes. The panel will use all relevant information they deem fit and necessary. And sadly for Oscar - he has FORM.....especially in the months leading up to the event on Feb 14 - and this will be crucial in determining his 'state' that morning. So they simply have to visit it - however damning for OP.

3 Psychiatrists, a clinical psychologist, and I believe Barry mentioned a social worker as well (usually softies) won't be able to ignore ALL of what is going to 'put to them'.

Very interesting time ahead. Wish I could sit silently in the corner and monitor. lease:

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

But what is alarming about the photo?

Sorry, I wasn't even looking at the photo per se. I actually shouldn't have replied by quoting you - apologies. I just wanted to let the user know that the grey haired chap in the pic is Brian Webber.

Sorry. :blushing:

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Some posters have said that Nel hit the jackpot because of info about OP"s behavior leading up to Reeva"s death that has not been presented in court. Any links to that info? Is this rumor info or from a reliable source? Thanks!

It is not rumour info, a lot of it is well documented - but the court could not take it into account at all - because it was inadmissible. Most of it is on public record though (and in the media). From Sept 2012, until Feb 2013 - it escalated. A media timeline will show this.

Estelle posted below - a list of things the panel will set out to determine.

Previous form is suddenly on the table (and rather relevant in terms of their mandate) for these mental health professionals.

This previous form includes his behavior. They will have to take it into account in terms of how they reach their findings/make a diagnosis/declare him fit to stand trial etc etc etc.

 

[DebinGA]

"Oscar's Dark Side": http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-dark-side-1.1471252#.U3TO_ChWkdU

Article right after Reeva's murder re some of OP's prior bad acts that his pr machine had managed to bury. I hope we'll hear from Cassidy Taylor-Memmory about OP's brief arrest for causing her leg injury in an angry, door-slamming incident in 2009 and his finally paying her court costs right before trial. And also the witnesses to his 2009 boat accident who contacted the press after he lied about the incident in court.