Trial Discussion Thread #40

[TessaG]

Hi :seeya:

Adams did run out to fetch her, and I firmly believe wanted to relay final messages etc - ESPECIALLY in Dr Vorsters case, as the DT would only have had the 'bare' outline of her hastily compiled report.
Adams stays away for some time, and no-one comes in. Barry asks for 5 mins. The M'lady says, "someone has come in". Adams returns and then Barry lambasts her. She attempts to explain that Dr Vorster had gone round the other way (Barry smartly turns back to camera position at this stage).

Got it. I thought you meant that Roux wanted to speak to her personally and didn't see how he could do that centre stage.

Thanks – I've obviously got a lot to learn here:blushing:

Just in. Will catch up in the morning.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Havent been able to follow much lately. Did I hear this right on the news that OP is being forced to go for 30 day assessment but he can do it as outpatient?

M'lady said they should try and get him in outpatient ----as the inquiry was not to punish the defendant bla bvla bla.

 

[soozieqtips]

Hi there TessaG and welcome to WS :welcome:

Just a friendly tip. When you quote someone's post, try and remember to include the last quote sign at the end of their post, otherwise we can't see where their quote ends and your post begins. You've got the first quote sign included, but you're missing the one right at the end of the post you're quoting, this one... [/QUOTE]

Hope that helps :smile:

 

[Estelle]

I can't see how he could not have shot to kill. He fired four times, knowing his ammunition, knowing the size of the cubicle, knowing he was just a metre or two away and we all know the end results of those shots - three out of four hit and all caused likely fatal injuries. He can't have not known.

I forgot to add to the 'warning shot' bit before that the reason the ricochet was dangerous was because he may have injured himself. He knew exactly what those bullets were designed to do H4M.

I thought what was so telling was that OP told Dr Vorster that he "shot at the noise". IMO we can then assume that he shot at the person behind that door who made that noise. This implies that he shot at that person.

 

[Estelle]

Any thoughts on the medical outcome..
My thoughts are that he will be given a clean bill of health regarding his state of mind at the time of the offense he will come across as a spoiled rich kid who has an unhealthy interest in guns and ammunition
I think his temper will also slip during the tests
So he will be seen to have all the necessary facilities to determine right from wrong and will be sentenced according

Just to add that I can predict that he will be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder and maybe other comorbid disorders.

Nor have lawyers had much luck in using NPD alone to build insanity defenses. Even the most hardcore of narcissists knows the difference between right and wrong and is in touch with reality. Last fall, for example, a South Dakota man named Kenneth Leon Martin was tried for killing an off-duty police officer. Defense lawyers argued that Martin's NPD led him to fantasize that—like a superpowerful version of the faith healers he'd seen on television—he could raise his victim from the dead. But Martin was convicted; the jury was convinced by a prosecution psychiatrist that the murderer, despite his disorder, was well aware that shooting an unarmed man was wrong.

 

[Carmelita]

Um... yeah.... hearing noises and reaching for guns to go on attack mode is why he was arrested in charged with murder.

Just because you're on stumps doesn't mean you can go commando and shoot at unarmed imaginary intruders you've told to leave your house.

Let's come back to the other side of the looking glass, and realize OP's own version of the killing is still murder - it's criminal homicide to pursue another person and intentionally shoot them dead while they are retreating after warning them to leave.

Oscars version is different, he did not believe he had the ability to flee do to his panicked state and the fact that he is missing the bottom half of his legs. He also did not think he was shooting at a retreating intruder he thought he was shooting at an aggressive intruder that was moving toward Oscar and Reeva.

 

[soozieqtips]

Oscars version is different, he did not believe he had the ability to flee do to his panicked state and the fact that he is missing the bottom half of his legs. He also did not think he was shooting at a retreating intruder he thought he was shooting at an aggressive intruder that was moving toward Oscar and Reeva.

BBM - except that the 'wood' moving noise which led him to believe the 'intruder' was about to come out of the toilet and attack him was never brought up until his testimony. In his affidavit, the noise in the toilet was just an unidentified noise. There was no suggestion at all that he thought the intruder was advancing towards him, so when he suddenly added (while on the stand) that the 'wood' noise made him think someone was about to come out and attack him, it felt like he was blatantly tailoring his evidence to make it seem as if he was in imminent danger, and had no option but to shoot.

I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.

It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet.

I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself.

I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger.

Nothing at all about him believing anyone was about to come out of the toilet. Just that he thought he and Reeva would be in grave danger 'when' they did.

 

[seattlechiquita]

BBM - except that the 'wood' moving noise which led him to believe the 'intruder' was about to come out of the toilet and attack him was never brought up until his testimony. In his affidavit, the noise in the toilet was just an unidentified noise. There was no suggestion at all that he thought the intruder was advancing towards him, so when he suddenly added (while on the stand) that the 'wood' noise made him think someone was about to come out and attack him, it felt like he was blatantly tailoring his evidence to make it seem as if he was in imminent danger, and had no option but to shoot.


Nothing at all about him believing anyone was about to come out of the toilet. Just that he thought he and Reeva would be in grave danger 'when' they did.

Bravo :clap: OP was his own worst enemy during his trial. Him and his own psychiatrist :giggle:

 

[Estelle]

Dr E V Rapiti, a local GP wrote this and sent it to the media yesterday:

Sending Oscar Pistorius to an institution to be observed for a month is a totally useless exercise and a gross waste of money on bed space that is desperately needed by more deserving psychiatric cases.

People with generalised anxiety disorders are not sent for observation because they are not conditions that you can easily feign.

The condition manifests either with or without a trigger factor (fear of heights, closed rooms, crowds, etc) and very often the individual has no control over his or her symptoms.

I fail to see what the court would want to establish by placing Pistorius under observation because his psychiatrist has given a detailed explanation of his condition. If all the court wants to prove is whether Pistorius does have an anxiety disorder or not then it might be disappointed because he may not have an anxiety attack in a controlled and safe environment or if he is already on medication for his depression and post-traumatic stress disorder.

The medications for his post-traumatic stress disorder would prevent his anxiety attacks.

He goes on to say that stopping his medication would be unethical.

Proving that Pistorius has an anxiety disorder will not help the defence or the prosecution’s case.

Who approved the medical certificate rendering Pistorius fit to own a gun?

http://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/letter-oscar-tests-a-useless-exercise-1.1688971#.U3U2yNKSwwA

This doctor has got some of his facts wrong here.

 

[Viper]

Bravo :clap: OP was his own worst enemy during his trial. Him and his own psychiatrist :giggle:

And his own attorneys for having Dr. V do an eval of OP and then put her on the stand for Nel to crush and get OP sent to the looney bin to be evaluated for 30 days by at least 4 people that will use his testimony to test him. Man, OP is in trouble. Can you imagine 4 Mr. Nels with psychiatric experience questioning and probing OP over and over and over again for 30 days!?

anic:

 

[Carmelita]

OP also claimed that he was very concerned with an intruder being on the ladder still outside the bathroom window, that his eyes were going back and forth from the window to the toilet room door however he kept his gun pointed/aimed at the door. Yet after firing four times into the toilet room door he never bothered to check out the bathroom window to see if there was an intruder on the ladder or not before he retreated to the bedroom.

Now, IF (and I dont' believe it is) his story is true, then wouldn't he have been in the same position he was originally in had there been an intruder on the ladder? What would he have done if an intruder came into the bedroom while his back was turned to that hallway when he was looking for Reeva? Why wouldn't he check to make sure that no one was on the ladder?

Perhaps OP should have thought about his "version/s" a little bit more and then he could have come up with some answers to the many unanswered questions that people (and more than likely the judge as well) have.

MOO

I hardly think an intruder upon hearing a 9mm fired a spit away would continue up the ladder and in a window toward the shots. I also hardly think a man in such an extreme situation as Oscar describes himself as perceiving to be in, would have the presence of mind to think after shooting 4 bullets into the toilet that he should now focus his attention on the window. But then again the mystery of stopping at 4 bullets could be solved as Oscar may have been subconsciously saving bullets for any further intruders. But that is just farcical speculating on my part.

 

[seattlechiquita]

And his own attorneys for having Dr. V do an eval of OP and then put her on the stand for Nel to crush and get OP sent to the looney bin to be evaluated for 30 days by at least 4 people that will use his testimony to test him. Man, OP is in trouble. Can you imagine 4 Mr. Nels with psychiatric experience questioning and probing OP over and over and over again for 30 days!?

anic:

Yikes.... that would make anyone cray-cray. I am so :loveyou: with Nel. Seriously.

 

[Estelle]

During her testimony, Vorster said that if Pistorius suffered from diminished responsibility when he shot Steenkamp, according to the Act he has to be sent for psychiatric observation. She said Pistorius was aware of the difference between right and wrong, but his disorder could have influenced his actions.

Grant said that if Pistorius is convicted and found to have had diminished responsibility, this could play a role in sentencing.

Gauteng health spokesman Simon Zwane said there was no difference between out- or inpatient assessment. He said doctors would determine the number and length of consultations.

http://www.dispatchlive.co.za/south-africa/a-month-of-mental-tests-for-pistorius/

I had not realised that it was Dr Vorster who made the recommendation first.

 

[Carmelita]

Just to add that I can predict that he will be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder and maybe other comorbid disorders.

Nor have lawyers had much luck in using NPD alone to build insanity defenses. Even the most hardcore of narcissists knows the difference between right and wrong and is in touch with reality. Last fall, for example, a South Dakota man named Kenneth Leon Martin was tried for killing an off-duty police officer. Defense lawyers argued that Martin's NPD led him to fantasize that—like a superpowerful version of the faith healers he'd seen on television—he could raise his victim from the dead. But Martin was convicted; the jury was convinced by a prosecution psychiatrist that the murderer, despite his disorder, was well aware that shooting an unarmed man was wrong.

I do not believe that they are looking for a mental disorder so great that the legality of an insanity plea will even be talked about. (In fact I think that I read SA doesn't have an insanity plea, I don't know what their equivalent would be).

I believe the good mental health wardens will be tasked with determining Oscar's general mental health, before, during, and after the morning he killed Reeva. They will also be tasked with putting a diagnosis to their findings if they believe he has a mental health disorder/illness which is listed in the DSM V. Their evaluation will then determine whether Judge Masipa should give any weight to Oscar's mental health when she is considering her judgement as to the reasonableness of his actions.

In other words was an diagnosed mental health defect a mitigating factor in Oscar's behavior in that AM.

 

[Estelle]

as a mitigating factor

http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/1992/33.html

 

[Carmelita]

And his own attorneys for having Dr. V do an eval of OP and then put her on the stand for Nel to crush and get OP sent to the looney bin to be evaluated for 30 days by at least 4 people that will use his testimony to test him. Man, OP is in trouble. Can you imagine 4 Mr. Nels with psychiatric experience questioning and probing OP over and over and over again for 30 days!?

anic:

That is not how psychological evaluations are conducted. It would be unethical. SA passed a far reaching Mental Health Care Act in 2002 or (3) maybe CTC will be back on and can give us some more information on the MHCA.

 

[Gryffindor]

I do not believe that they are looking for a mental disorder so great that the legality of an insanity plea will even be talked about. (In fact I think that I read SA doesn't have an insanity plea, I don't know what their equivalent would be).

I believe the good mental health wardens will be tasked with determining Oscar's general mental health, before, during, and after the morning he killed Reeva. They will also be tasked with putting a diagnosis to their findings if they believe he has a mental health disorder/illness which is listed in the DSM V. Their evaluation will then determine whether Judge Masipa should give any weight to Oscar's mental health when she is considering her judgement as to the reasonableness of his actions.

In other words was an diagnosed mental health defect a mitigating factor in Oscar's behavior in that AM.

Thanks Carmelita, that's my understanding too.

 

[CriLondon]

The phone was recovered in the toilet, but who knows who put it there. was it Reeva or OP himself. He might have thrown it in there himself in a staging move.

Also, I have a possible scenario. I have wondered if Reeva went in there and locked herself in, after arguing with OP. She might have had it in there and threatened to call police. But she probably wouldn't have wanted to actually call them at that time. She surely had no idea he was going to get his loaded weapon. She probably thought he would cool down and they could talk things through. Too late for that, once she made the threat though. :moo:

I agree on that , that has been my scenario all along.

It seems logical to me that OP would try to cover the fact that he handled the phone by saying that he tried to make an emergency call.
From all this it seems plausible to me that OP would ensure that RS did not manage an emergency call.
I also think it wasn't locked and he did , in fact , ensure.

 

[DILLIGAF]

"Oscar's Dark Side": http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-dark-side-1.1471252#.U3TO_ChWkdU

Article right after Reeva's murder re some of OP's prior bad acts that his pr machine had managed to bury. I hope we'll hear from Cassidy Taylor-Memmory about OP's brief arrest for causing her leg injury in an angry, door-slamming incident in 2009 and his finally paying her court costs right before trial. And also the witnesses to his 2009 boat accident who contacted the press after he lied about the incident in court.

Sadly, it was only a matter of time before he "lost it" completely.

 

[Gryffindor]

I agree on that , that has been my scenario all along.

It seems logical to me that OP would try to cover the fact that he handled the phone by saying that he tried to make an emergency call.
From all this it seems plausible to me that OP would ensure that RS did not manage an emergency call.
I also think it wasn't locked and he did , in fact , ensure.

Even if a phone is locked, even with no service/reception and no credit (Pay& Go applicable only) emergency calls can always be made. The only inhibitor would be if a phone had no charge.