Trial Discussion Thread #40

[DebinGA]

The link below is a day by day rundown of testimony of the sort Trooper and zwiebel helpfully provide us. I didn't take the time to find Dr. Vorster's first mention of "Dr. Holmes" report, but the snipped bit refers to it. I'd like to know who contacted Dr. Richard Holmes re OP, and when his report was issued.

http://live.nydailynews.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_Murder_Trial_for_Reeva_Steenkamps_Death?Page=81

May 13 at 4:12 AMBrenden Nel

Nel: Did the clincial psychologist's results play a role in your report
Vorster: No, I didn't look at it in great detail.
Nel: Dr Holmes report you used more in terms of history
Vorster: Clinical test results confirmed my opinion.

May 13 at 4:11 AMBrenden Nel

Nel: You had access to Dr Holmes report. He is registered as an educational and industrial psychologist. What was the purpose of his report.
Vorster: It was the history obtained by Dr Holmes, he also had a clinical psychologist who did testing on the accused. It confirmed the history as I contained. It confirmed the impression I obtained of the accused through the tests.

 

[Zim]

uhhhh, I think the Judge better take his passport on Tuesday!

Passport ? Meh ! Passports in Africa are easy to buy....
Also it is quite simple to leave South Africa without one...wink wink !

 

[Trooper]

The link below is a day by day rundown of testimony of the sort Trooper and zwiebel helpfully provide us. I didn't take the time to find Dr. Vorster's first mention of "Dr. Holmes" report, but the snipped bit refers to it. I'd like to know who contacted Dr. Richard Holmes re OP, and when his report was issued.

http://live.nydailynews.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_Murder_Trial_for_Reeva_Steenkamps_Death?Page=81

The only info I ever managed to retrieve was that Holmes was a para_olympian himself ( discus , javelin) .. and that since becoming a psychologist, in the area of educationalist, he also is a consultant with the South African Olympic committee.. probably has access to the athletes on that basis..

 

[Zim]

I must ask...
If as an outpatient OP has to be at the 'evaluation centre' from 5am - 9pm does that mean he has to leave 'home' at about 4.30am only to return at about 9.30pm....that is a long, stressful day.
Who drives him ?
Would it be everyday (7/7) or just Monday to Friday ?

 

[Trooper]

It is possible, even probable that Oscar came to the attention of the Sports psychologists attached to the SA Olympic federation, in the light of his performance re the Brazilian and his roommate having to move out of the shared accommodation. Two incidences in one fortnight at top level competition. Makes sense..

 

[Viper]

The link below is a day by day rundown of testimony of the sort Trooper and zwiebel helpfully provide us. I didn't take the time to find Dr. Vorster's first mention of "Dr. Holmes" report, but the snipped bit refers to it. I'd like to know who contacted Dr. Richard Holmes re OP, and when his report was issued.

http://live.nydailynews.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_Murder_Trial_for_Reeva_Steenkamps_Death?Page=81

So if I am following along with the program, Holmes had OP tested but did not pick up on any anxiety issue(s). Dr. V used Holmes' test results and reports to confirm her diagnosis of GAD existed on about the time of the murder, and that it has progressed. Am I right? :smile:

So reasonable psychiatrists would likely also diagnose some small level of anxiety in OP just after the murder, and perhaps a low level of GAD, worrying about things. OP is a worry-wort? LOL!!! Most people are I would think, to one degree or another.

I once spent a weekend with a group of friends in New Orleans, taking in one of the numerous festivals that go on there throughout the year. A guest of one of my friends was a criminal psychiatrist who worked at the Department of Corrections in Atlanta, Georgia at one of the larger prisons. I wish that I had asked him more about his work, but it was sort of a creepy topic, if you follow my thinking. We did speak briefly about it and I remember him explaining to me that these criminals are very dangerous, he would never have a conversation with them that was casual, never share his personal thoughts, experiences, or information. He was particularly concerned that one of them might seek him out and harm him if they had a shred of his personal information. I am sharing that information just as a point of reference as to how the doctors that evaluate OP will approach and interact with him. They will be polite, but most likely not outwardly friendly.

 

[Zim]

An aggressive intruder wouldn't hide and corner himself behind a locked toilet door. An aggressive intruder would've crawled though that window with guns-a-blazing!

Too true...or on to the balcony...I know about this from experience !

 

[Carmelita]

Roux made very clear before the judge that the defense is not seeking a diminished capacity defense but was rather suggesting mitigating circumstances, he even gave 2 or 3 concrete examples, the only one I remember is a petite woman defending herself, a reasonable court will be more likely to be receptive to a petite woman using a weapon to defend herself against a large male attacker because her size makes her less physically able to defended herself. Surely it is not hard to figure out a petite woman would be more fearful of a large man attacking her than a large man would be of a petite woman attacking him.

Oscar’s GAD diagnosis coupled with his double amputee status was presented as a mitigating circumstance until Nel through great labor pains gave birth to the diminished capacity claim.

I have just finished reading Oscar’s autobiography very interesting dynamics made the man we know as "Blade Runner."

And I stand behind one of my first thoughts that I posted here and that is Oscar is emotionally unstable, he has obvious maladaptive qualities, character flaws aside, he has IMO some mental health issues and he definitely has an extremely difficult time allowing himself his humanity. This is how he came by nature and this is how he was raised, to show himself no mercy. His life is quite the perfect storm of genetics, a dysfunctional social/family environment and psychological predisposition emerging to create the maladapted man that is Oscar Pistorious.

 

[zwiebel]

SADAG's operations director has spoken out about how people affected by GAD in SA are becoming concerned about stigma after 'recent events'.

What a shame. That's the last thing they need.

http://www.sabreakingnews.co.za/2014/05/16/oscar-trial-know-the-facts-about-gad/

 

[patCee]

I am pretty sure he was being treated for depression and anxiety before he met Dr Vorster. The reason I think he testified about it is because I thought he said he was medicated and maybe even listed his medications. I remember thinking ...well that explains why he looks and acts like a zombie sometimes in court.

I could be wrong but that's me recollection and I'm not going back to listen and confirm

Besides, I'm not really sure how this is relevant to anything going on now ?

Your are right as this article says, OP said during his evidence that since RS died he couldn't sleep and takes Cipralex for depression, and something to help him sleep.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar_Pistorius/I-have-terrible-nightmares-Oscar-20140407

 

[zwiebel]

The organisation has a doc on its home page, answering questions about anxiety and panic attacks.

http://www.sadag.org/

 

[Trooper]

Roux made very clear before the judge that the defense is not seeking a diminished capacity defense but was rather suggesting mitigating circumstances, he even gave 2 or 3 concrete examples, the only one I remember is a petite woman defending herself, a reasonable court will be more likely to be receptive to a petite woman using a weapon to defend herself against a large male attacker because her size makes her less physically able to defended herself. Surely it is not hard to figure out a petite woman would be more fearful of a large man attacking her than a large man would be of a petite woman attacking him.

Oscar’s GAD diagnosis coupled with his double amputee status was presented as a mitigating circumstance until Nel through great labor pains gave birth to the diminished capacity claim.
I have just finished reading Oscar’s autobiography very interesting dynamics made the man we know as "Blade Runner."

And I stand behind one of my first thoughts that I posted here and that is Oscar is emotionally unstable, he has obvious maladaptive qualities, character flaws aside, he has IMO some mental health issues and he definitely has an extremely difficult time allowing himself his humanity. This is how he came by nature and this is how he was raised, to show himself no mercy. His life is quite the perfect storm of genetics, a dysfunctional social/family environment and psychological predisposition emerging to create the maladapted man that is Oscar Pistorious.

BBM

this part I have bolded is a misperception and misinformation. Oscars own defence expert witness laboured, and with great pain gave birth to diminished capacity due to a mental disorder claim.

Nel , as an officer of the court, first and foremost, had no other choice but to place a claim for an investigatory assessment.

Roux, as equally as an officer of the court, first and foremost, should have done this previously.

Judge Masipa, as an officer of the court , first and foremost has no choice but to grant the valid and essential claim.

 

[DebinGA]

"Pistorius's Family Is Super Rich": http://www.witness.co.za/index.php?showcontent&global[_id]=96515

I hope OP is being followed by SAP, because his family's wealth and foreign affiliations make him a prime flight risk imo. Using a list of the family holdings worldwide and noting the countries with no extradition treaties with SA, we could guess where he'd go and where he wouldn't.

 

[Trooper]

Your are right as this article says, OP said during his evidence that since RS died he couldn't sleep and takes Cipralex for depression, and something to help him sleep.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar_Pistorius/I-have-terrible-nightmares-Oscar-20140407

BBM... but not previous to Reeva's murder.

 

[lithgow1]

I believe that it was one of the conditions for the trial to be televised. Every person taking the witness stand was given the option.
In all fairness , the moment the court allows the trial to be broadcast live,it should do so in its entirety. Just my opinion ...i guess what we have is better than nothing!

Actually with all respect I do not agree with that. Courts are public in that anyone can go and observe but that's different to being broadcast to an audience of millions. I think all the witnesses and even OP should have had the choice of whether to be filmed when giving their testimony. All have been examined to the nth degree here and in many other places - imagine if people could also disect their mannerisms, body language and hair styles. Might be interesting but they have rights to some degree of privacy IMO. I can't speak for anyone else but I sure wouldn't like it.

 

[Viper]

SADAG's operations director has spoken out about how people affected by GAD in SA are becoming concerned about stigma after 'recent events'.

What a shame. That's the last thing they need.

http://www.sabreakingnews.co.za/2014/05/16/oscar-trial-know-the-facts-about-gad/

From you link. Quote:
“GAD is a persistent, intense and excessive worrying of such severity that it interferes with someone’s functioning,” said psychologist Kevin Bolon.

This means it only becomes a problem when your worries take up so much time and energy that you begin to slip up at work and in social responsibilities. For 33-year old GAD sufferer Lara, her worries consume her so much that she feels anxious even where there is no reason to.

“I often have this overwhelming feeling that something terrible is going to happen – my family and friends just don’t get it,” she said.

BIB I don't get how Dr. V could have diagnosed GAD as having been part of OP before the murder, I just don't. If someone was suffering with this condition, it would be obvious to friends, family, coworkers, etc... and they would ask someone, anyone, for help and advice.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Roux made very clear before the judge that the defense is not seeking a diminished capacity defense but was rather suggesting mitigating circumstances, he even gave 2 or 3 concrete examples, the only one I remember is a petite woman defending herself, a reasonable court will be more likely to be receptive to a petite woman using a weapon to defend herself against a large male attacker because her size makes her less physically able to defended herself. Surely it is not hard to figure out a petite woman would be more fearful of a large man attacking her than a large man would be of a petite woman attacking him.

Oscar’s GAD diagnosis coupled with his double amputee status was presented as a mitigating circumstance until Nel through great labor pains gave birth to the diminished capacity claim.
I have just finished reading Oscar’s autobiography very interesting dynamics made the man we know as "Blade Runner."

And I stand behind one of my first thoughts that I posted here and that is Oscar is emotionally unstable, he has obvious maladaptive qualities, character flaws aside, he has IMO some mental health issues and he definitely has an extremely difficult time allowing himself his humanity. This is how he came by nature and this is how he was raised, to show himself no mercy. His life is quite the perfect storm of genetics, a dysfunctional social/family environment and psychological predisposition emerging to create the maladapted man that is Oscar Pistorious.

Nel didn't give birth to the diminished capacity claim, the defence did when they called Prof V to the stand.

 

[BritsKate]

BBM

Is it your opinion, or is it a fact that OP has "not sought treatment for any disorder, none at all"?

The large majority on this board feel that OP is a terrible liar and many think he even charmed and fooled Dr. M. Vorster, whose testimony turned out to be incredibly damaging to him, in my opinion.

So, I am wondering what your source is or what reason you have for saying OP has not sought treatment. How would any of of have a clue what he may have done in his past.

BBM

I don't know that 'many' believe the bolded portion or if they feel Vorster, a psychiatrist retained by the defence team, deliberately presented only a certain type of diagnosis. What some here feel he does 'suffer' from wouldn't be very helpful to his putative self-defence claim.

That said, if people do feel he manipulated his psychiatrist, and our armchair diagnosis of a cluster B personality disorder is correct, the bolded portion is indeed a possibility and not unheard of at all. One case history of an abusive relationship I've referenced in the past featured a psychologist as the victim of someone personality disordered and abusive.

People diagnosed with personality disorder rarely independently seek help for their condition, or all the knock on problems such a disorder creates, because they resolutely feel there is nothing wrong with themselves. I tend to believe if Oscar were seeking any counseling or treatment for anything prior to Reeva's murder though, Dr. Vorster would have mentioned such, especially if the aim was to bolster Oscar's claim of heightened anxiety and vulnerability at the time of the shooting.

 

[patCee]

BBM... but not previous to Reeva's murder.

I was replying to Minor 4th's post that said before meeting Dr V. Not your earlier discussion with her, that's why I put the info before the link to the article.

 

[DebinGA]

Your are right as this article says, OP said during his evidence that since RS died he couldn't sleep and takes Cipralex for depression, and something to help him sleep.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar_Pistorius/I-have-terrible-nightmares-Oscar-20140407

OP's torment over killing Reeva is primarily because of the effect it's had on his image, his racing career, and his future earnings potential. I don't know who suggested OP claim he'd climbed into a cupboard during a night fright and Aimee had to come talk him out, but that person needs a psych eval too. I think Uncle Arnold is the puppeteer pulling most of OP's strings and making most of the trial decisions, and we see how that's turned out.