Trial Discussion Thread #43 - 14.06.30 Day 33

[Greater Than]

While there's plenty of people around tonight, can someone tell me if the light on OP's balcony was on all night, as in it was on for security purposes and couldn't be turned off?

OP testified that the balcony light was on. I distinctly remember that fact because Dixon got nailed for testifying to the lighting conditions of the crime scene without bothering to turn that light on.

 

[AJ_DS]

1. State had absolutely NO foreseeable reason or ANY possible way of knowing that the fan would eventually become relevant to the murder case… much less the extension cord to which the fan was connected.

2. State conducted their forensic investigations between 14 and 17 February 2013… the ONLY statement they had to go on from Oscar Pistorius was that he shot Reeva in the toilet cubicle thinking she was intruder.

3. All items seized by the State were inventoried… the extension cord does NOT appear in said inventory which was divulged to the Defence during discovery.

4. State released the house to the Defence on 17 February 2013.

5. The FIRST time the fan was even mentioned was in a prologue to the events during the bail application between 19 and 23 February 2013.

6. The FIRST time the fan was put forth as an integral part of Oscar's version of events was during Oscar's testimony in chief between 7 and 9 April 2014.

7. The FIRST time the physical impossibility of the fan's location was put forth was during Oscar's cross-examination between 9 and 15 April 2014.

8. Oscar Pistorius sold and vacated his house in May 2014.

9. The FIRST time Defence requested the State to produce the extension cord because it was important to their case was on 6 June 2014.

10. Roux alleges that the State must have seized the extension cord because on 14 February 2013 it was photographed next to the bed and on 15 February 2013 it was no longer next to the bed… Police investigators cannot and do not ever inventory every single item contained within a house.

11. I suspect the hair clipper that was next to the bed was also moved… Roux could request the State to produce it as well. This fallacious reasoning and underhanded tactic could be applied to any and all items that were moved but never seized… Ridiculous !

12. Roux alleges the extension cord is 5 meters in length… absolutely LUDICROUS… One can clearly see on the photographs without any possible doubt that the extension cord cannot even reach the length of the bed… the longest standard bed available is 2.13 meters long and the extension cord stretches approximately 2/3 of the bed's length : this means that the extension cord is about 1.5 meters in length… Roux would have the Court believe that the extension cord is more than 3 times longer than its actual length !!!

Roux is obviously desperate : not having been able to deliver a remotely plausible Defence, he is attempting to confuse the Court on all fronts.

- Although the extension cord was missing from the house and it did not appear in the inventory, why did the Defence not inquire on its whereabout on 17 February 2013 ?

- Although the extension cord was relevant ONLY to Oscar's version of events, why did the Defence wait 16 months to inquire on its whereabout ?

- Although the extension cord was of great importance for Oscar's credibility, why did the Defence wait 2 months after Oscar finished his testimony to inquire on its whereabout ?

The State had control of the contents of the house for 3.5 days and had no way of knowing the extension would be relevant until 14 months later, when Oscar Pistorius testified.

Oscar Pistorius had control of the contents of his house for about 478 days… he knew the fan was important and that the length of the extension cord contradicted his version of events… it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what happened with that extension cord !!

 

[cottonweaver]

Not been able to watch today due to that little thing called work.

Just starting to watch on youtube and look at a few posts.

It's probably already been mentioned on this thread that the good doctor's ex-wife is the woman that tried to stop the trial - remember Annamarie?

"Just to add some spice to the mix, the woman who attempted to postpone Pistorus’ trial last year arrived in court and began handing out files to the legal team. Allegedly, she is the ex-wife of Oscar’s orthopedic surgeon, Dr Gerald Versfeld, Annamarie.She told various media that she believes that Oscar Pistorius has had a head injury, which (she believes) has led to his poor reasoning during the shooting. It seemed as though she might delay proceedings again, but any of these supposed attempts were thwarted as she was escorted out of the courts by security"

I don't think Roux will be mentioning that!

http://www.luckieentertainment.co.za/view/article/103

 

[jay-jay]

10. Roux alleges that the State must have seized the extension cord because on 14 February 2013 it was photographed next to the bed and on 15 February 2013 it was no longer next to the bed… Police investigators cannot and do not ever inventory every single item contained within a house.

11. I suspect the hair clipper that was next to the bed was also moved… Roux could request the State to produce it as well. This fallacious reasoning and underhanded tactic could be applied to any and all items that were moved but never seized… Ridiculous !

~snipped for brevity and bbm ~

Exactly!

.. and the rest of your post upthread is absolutely excellent and completely spot on! I really hope that Judge Masipa is clued up to all of this, I'm starting to have my doubts because she should NOT have been demanding to have that extension lead earlier today.

 

[canny]

For the life of me I can't figure out why OP is crying out to the night for help when his longtime domestic helper, Frank, is asleep downstairs in a room said to be right off the kitchen. Why has Nel never asked OP, "Why did you not call out to Frank or ask him to help you move Reeva downstairs instead of calling the Standers?"

The presence of Frank the mysterious gardener at the crime scene doesn’t appear in any of the written and court testimony of the police personnel, neighbors, friends and security staff. The lone African man standing outside the house when Dr Stipp rushed in to help has now been positively identified through his own testimony in court as Michael Nhlengethwa OP friendly civil engineer next door neighbor. There could be two possibilities, one Frank was not at home or as an immigrant worker his loyalty to his employer and provider was paramount, therefore he was ordered by OP to say he was sleeping. Even if the later is true, imo the government must have politely requested the prosecutor as well as the defense to leave poor Africans out of this murder trial given the racial disharmony that OP has created by falsely blaming the presence of intruders in his toilet as the sole reason that lead him to mistakenly kill his girlfriend Reeva.

 

[Chelly]

As for the missing cord. Marsipa is right to be upset that a piece of evidence has gone missing. I imagine Nel can't be terribly pleased either at this blatant display of police sloppiness/incompetence...or worse.

Perhaps the cord disappeared before the police were able to collect it into evidence? Perhaps Roux very well knows the circumstances of its disappearance. Why else would he make such an issue of it?

 

[vansleuths]

I also wondered about this.

Found out it stands for "Respectfully snipped by me" according to the forum speak page.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Websleuths Lingo

Thank you

 

[Chelly]

Seems to me if Roux was indeed going to introduce a demo of OP screaming like a woman it would have come about during the sound expert's testimony.

 

[canny]

Maybe it isn't just a hullaballoo but a necessary move. IMO it is important since Nel used that cable, or rather a photo of it, as a major piece of evidence to prove OP's story when he returned to the bedroom couldn't possibly be true since according to Nel the cable wasn't long enough to plug into where OP said it had been.

rsbm

This extension cord has two sockets. According to OP's testimony he plugged both the fans into the sockets, this has been exposed as a lie because his ipad adapter is plugged in the first socket. Roux is shooting blanks by trying to insinuate that the police tampered with the crime scene and destroyed evidence for the simple reason that on 14th and 15th Feb the police has no clue as to what occurred that night in the bedroom and bathroom, because he refused to be interrogated by the police on the advise of his lawyer.

 

[RileyA]

IMO - someone has been bought at a high level in this trial.

 

[Really?]

Versfeld saying OP is unstable on his stumps is one thing, but OP himself says that he walked that entire area in the top photo and did not trip over anything. Add these testimonies together and you have clear proof that OP cannot under any stretch of the imagination, be telling the truth.

Nel V Lin is going to be excellent tomorrow. Noise tests have been carried out but the acoustics will be different as there has been further buildings erected in the area which will affect how sounds travel. Another example of the DT scrambling around too late in the day.

Yes. The DT team were reeeeely stretching it with their last witnesses.

Good golly , guess they knew what the outcome of the mental health tests was.

To use the long break to find someone willing to try and discredit what witnesses heard that night.

So many ears that night cannot be wrong.

I can't wait to see my good Mr. Nel tomorrow. Swoon

 

[Really?]

Apologies for interrupting. I am just beginning to watch the start of Monday's session on YouTube. If I were to post here it would be about trial events most of you have already witnessed. Would I be breaking up the flow of conversation and be unwelcome with those posts? Either way I will understand. Please let me know in advance.:blushing: Thanks.

No way would you be interrupting. You are part of our group, our peeps .... A websleuther

 

[AJ_DS]

Addendum to Defence tactics

Oscar Pistorius met with Dr. Gerhard Versveld the orthopedic surgeon on 7 May 2014… that's the same day of his second interview with Dr. Vorster… the Holiday for elections in SA… the Holliday Roux said in open Court he was not aware of !!!!

How can Roux say he did not know 7 May 2014 was a Holiday when Oscar Pistorius had 2 meetings with 2 experts scheduled that very day ?!?

Oscar has to be present in Court when Court is in session… so without the Holiday Oscar could not meet with Dr. Versveld or Dr. Vorster !!

… and without the 2-week adjournment, Roux would not have been able to call upon 3 witnesses :

1- Ingrid van Schalkwyk, social worker
2- Dr Merryll Vorster, forensic psychiatrist
3- Dr. Gerhard Versvel, orthopedic surgeon

… talk about a disorganized, last minute and "let's try a bunch of different stuff and see if anything sticks" Defence strategy !!

 

[G.bng]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwzV3uB9UrI

At about 54:00 minutes they discuss the cord.

As I understand it Nel says that the extension cord's plug could not have moved much further to the right because the clippers was plugged in. Since the plug had to remain in the same place for the clipper, the length of the cord in question is not the length of the extension cord, but the length of the cord of the fan (from the plug to the area where OP said he placed the fan.)

Thanks for link. It of course isn't quite as I remembered since I thought I recalled Roux making an objection about the photo being used as proof the cord couldn't reach where OP said he placed the fan, but I must be mixing it with something else Roux objected about.

That said, after watching the Video, I remember now how I thought Roux should object at the time since Nel was trying to put as fact what was impossible to determine from a photo/s. Even the bad quality onscreen image showed slack both in the extension lead as well as in the fan cord, but whether sufficient to move it to where OP has said cannot be proved without the cord and the relative measurements. Having now also seen the part I missed of today's hearing, precisely Roux making the application for the cord in which he talked of the defence being prejudiced, I still think that if the cord doesn't appear, as seems likely, to eliminate or mitigate the prejudice Roux said it causes the defence if it stays as a fact that the cord didn't reach my bet is Roux may likely ask for that part of the State's "evidence" to be struck from the record.

 

[Really?]

The presence of Frank the mysterious gardener at the crime scene doesn’t appear in any of the written and court testimony of the police personnel, neighbors, friends and security staff. The lone African man standing outside the house when Dr Stipp rushed in to help has now been positively identified through his own testimony in court as Michael Nhlengethwa OP friendly civil engineer next door neighbor. There could be two possibilities, one Frank was not at home or as an immigrant worker his loyalty to his employer and provider was paramount, therefore he was ordered by OP to say he was sleeping. Even if the later is true, imo the government must have politely requested the prosecutor as well as the defense to leave poor Africans out of this murder trial given the racial disharmony that OP has created by falsely blaming the presence of intruders in his toilet as the sole reason that lead him to mistakenly kill his girlfriend Reeva.

LOL..... I wish there were a spitting wine from my nose smile

 

[liesbeth]

Seems to me if Roux was indeed going to introduce a demo of OP screaming like a woman it would have come about during the sound expert's testimony.

I may be wrong, but afaik there is a rule that states that in court you cannot rely on evidence that is contradictory to the testimony of a witness without putting the evidence to the witness in order to allow them to attempt to justify the contradiction.

So if Roux didn't play a recording of OP's screams to the ear witnesses (Burger, Johnson, Stipp and Stipp) he can not do so now.

Edit: My definition is taken from the Browne vs Dunn wiki page but there are many other pages that say the same thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browne_v._Dunn

 

[G.bng]

I'm sure Lin is a highly intelligent decent man, but as soon as he made the comment that hearing is open to interpretation and varies from person to person his whole testimony felt pointless.

And why would that be, i.e. why would it make his whole testimony feel "pointless"? That different people hear and interpret sounds differently is a known fact, just as people and eyewitnesses see scenes differently. That is how it is.

 

[G.bng]

No, you haven't missed anything. At the time of OP's bail application the State put forward that OP was wearing his prostheses. However the police expert who did the scientific analysis on the bathroom door, Lt Colonel Vermeulen, was of the belief that OP was on his stumps. Hence the PT went with that opinion. Capt Mangena testified that his ballistics report was based on the fact that OP said he was on his stumps. However, he qualified this by saying it was possible he was wearing his prostheses.

Be that as it may, neither Vermeulen nor Mangena stated that it was impossible for him to have been wearing his prostheses. Obviously if they made a categorical statement that he was on his stumps that would have been the end of the matter. However my belief is based on the fact it was possible. I guess it boils down to what you personally believe happened that night, taking into account all the known facts, probabilities, lies etc., because no-one will ever really know precisely what happened.

I'm one of the believers that there was an argument that escalated over the course of the evening. OP is a person who displays many narcissistic qualities - is controlling, has a sense of self-importance, believes he is special, has a sense of entitlement, lacks empathy and is arrogant. He also has a very hot temper. Because of this, I can't believe he'd have an argument with Reeva while on his stumps with her towering over him. He'd want to assume a more dominant posture which would necessitate him wearing his legs. I can't for one moment believe that he'd allow himself to literally be talked down to by her.

Secondly, he's stated over and over again how he was terrified after he perceived that an intruder/s may have entered his home, but nevertheless proceeded towards the danger when he had the opportunity to ring the police himself, activate the alarm, unlock the bedroom door and escape, shout out to the person that he was armed or wait in the bedroom with his firearm for the person to appear. After Dr Versfeld's testimony today regarding OP's many problems on his stumps - he finds it's difficult to walk, let alone run, he relies on light to see where his legs are and his balance is worse in the dark, I'm totally convinced that he was not on his stumps that night. JMO

Well, let's see what the State's case in final arguments is which is where they will have to pull everything together based on the evidence as it is and iirc the State already accepted that OP was on his stumps at least when he fired the shots. What suspense!

 

[liesbeth]

1. State had absolutely NO foreseeable reason or ANY possible way of knowing that the fan would eventually become relevant to the murder case… much less the extension cord to which the fan was connected.

2. State conducted their forensic investigations between 14 and 17 February 2013… the ONLY statement they had to go on from Oscar Pistorius was that he shot Reeva in the toilet cubicle thinking she was intruder.

3. All items seized by the State were inventoried… the extension cord does NOT appear in said inventory which was divulged to the Defence during discovery.

4. State released the house to the Defence on 17 February 2013.

5. The FIRST time the fan was even mentioned was in a prologue to the events during the bail application between 19 and 23 February 2013.

6. The FIRST time the fan was put forth as an integral part of Oscar's version of events was during Oscar's testimony in chief between 7 and 9 April 2014.

7. The FIRST time the physical impossibility of the fan's location was put forth was during Oscar's cross-examination between 9 and 15 April 2014.

8. Oscar Pistorius sold and vacated his house in May 2014.

9. The FIRST time Defence requested the State to produce the extension cord because it was important to their case was on 6 June 2014.

10. Roux alleges that the State must have seized the extension cord because on 14 February 2013 it was photographed next to the bed and on 15 February 2013 it was no longer next to the bed… Police investigators cannot and do not ever inventory every single item contained within a house.

11. I suspect the hair clipper that was next to the bed was also moved… Roux could request the State to produce it as well. This fallacious reasoning and underhanded tactic could be applied to any and all items that were moved but never seized… Ridiculous !

12. Roux alleges the extension cord is 5 meters in length… absolutely LUDICROUS… One can clearly see on the photographs without any possible doubt that the extension cord cannot even reach the length of the bed… the longest standard bed available is 2.13 meters long and the extension cord stretches approximately 2/3 of the bed's length : this means that the extension cord is about 1.5 meters in length… Roux would have the Court believe that the extension cord is more than 3 times longer than its actual length !!!

Roux is obviously desperate : not having been able to deliver a remotely plausible Defence, he is attempting to confuse the Court on all fronts.

- Although the extension cord was missing from the house and it did not appear in the inventory, why did the Defence not inquire on its whereabout on 17 February 2013 ?

- Although the extension cord was relevant ONLY to Oscar's version of events, why did the Defence wait 16 months to inquire on its whereabout ?

- Although the extension cord was of great importance for Oscar's credibility, why did the Defence wait 2 months after Oscar finished his testimony to inquire on its whereabout ?

The State had control of the contents of the house for 3.5 days and had no way of knowing the extension would be relevant until 14 months later, when Oscar Pistorius testified.

Oscar Pistorius had control of the contents of his house for about 478 days… he knew the fan was important and that the length of the extension cord contradicted his version of events… it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what happened with that extension cord !!

This is an impressive post. As always. Thank you. Wish you posted this on a local South African forum. Or better yet, emailed it to the judge.

 

[AJ_DS]

Thanks for link. It of course isn't quite as I remembered since I thought I recalled Roux making an objection about the photo being used as proof the cord couldn't reach where OP said he placed the fan, but I must be mixing it with something else Roux objected about.

That said, after watching the Video, I remember now how I thought Roux should object at the time since Nel was trying to put as fact what was impossible to determine from a photo/s. Even the bad quality onscreen image showed slack both in the extension lead as well as in the fan cord, but whether sufficient to move it to where OP has said cannot be proved without the cord and the relative measurements. Having now also seen the part I missed of today's hearing, precisely Roux making the application for the cord in which he talked of the defence being prejudiced, I still think that if the cord doesn't appear, as seems likely, to eliminate or mitigate the prejudice Roux said it causes the defence if it stays as a fact that the cord didn't reach my bet is Roux may likely ask for that part of the State's "evidence" to be struck from the record.

I believe that producing the extension cord is not the responsibility of the State… they did not seize it… it was never an element of their case.

Photographs are evidence… and even if one cannot determine the exact length of the extension cord, one can surely see how much slack is available… so I don't see anything being struck from the record on such basis.

The extension cord and the fan placement was part of the Defence case and version of events… the State merely tested this evidence and it failed miserably.

Furthermore the photos are quite clear as to the length of the extension cord… no way is it 5 meters long as Roux is now alleging !!!

Oscar's bedroom is 4.559 meters long…. so a 5 meter long extension could stretch from behind the bedside table all the way to behind the Hi-Fi with about 0.5 meters to spare !!!…

I think Roux would benefit from a 30-day stay at Weskoppies Psychiatric Hospital… or he should stop smoking the ganja !