Trial Discussion Thread #44 - 14.07.1-2, Day 34-35

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Just finished watching today's coverage of final part cross x of van Zyl.
Been concentrating on OP's reactions. Smiles, amusement, irritation on his face, concern, smirks.

I just can't see his responsive reactions to the Nel vs Zyl tussle as typical of someone who is medicated for depression, suicidal, not taking much pleasure from life etc etc. Not expecting a catatonic defendant but he appears to be fully with it, taking pleasure in some parts: all appropriate reactions.

Does anyone else agree? (Or am i being unfair and overly biased against him or maybe just ill informed on depression? )
 
A trial isn't about compassion for the victim. Objective analysis of evidence absent mockery and emotionalism does not exclude compassion for victims or their surviving loved ones.
'Objective' as in Dixon using a model 20cm shorter than OP to show what neighbours would have seen from the bathroom window???
 
That report was helpful for the defense. Roux and OP never claimed diminished capacity or mental defect that would render him unable to understand what he was doing or appreciate right from wrong.

Dr MV called it GAD, but the report calls it vulnerability, especially when on his stumps. That was the whole point of the doctor's testimony - to explain that Oscar felt threatened and vulnerable to harm because of past incidents and his disability.

In addition, you've now got a report from psychiatrists and psychologists who evaluated him for 30 days and find that he does not have a rage or anger problem and that his emotions and grieving behaviors are sincere.

I am confident that Nel’s insistence on a referral stands vindicated because the panel report has reinforced the state case that OP is not mentally ill and they now stand protected from any legal challenges henceforth, in fact this report strengthens the state case against OP on all counts. With the detailed panel report at Judge Masipa’s disposal, OP cannot be declared not guilty by reason of mental illness.

Dr MV reputation and career as a well respected psychiatrist in SA in all probability has hit rock bottom with the stinging rebuttal of her report by the panel appointed by the court to evaluate OP mental health prior to Reeva’s killing. Her report was meant to be used by the defense in a two pronged strategy to attain the same goal, i.e. to get OP acquitted on all charges by manipulating the court to rule in its favor under mitigating circumstances, or use it as a ground for appeal in the Supreme court if the defense loses the case in this court.

Judge Masipa was perplexed by Nel’s argument of insisting on a referral even though Roux was adamant that GAD is not a mental illness as the gravity of the defense strategy and the consequences for this case and her career as judge and likely promotion to the Supreme Court in the foreseeable future had not dawned upon her. She looked bamboozled by Nel’s heated arguments with Roux, but since the defense psychiatrist report indicated that his decision making ability was severely compromised the court had no option but to refer him to a fully fledged panel selected by the court. Dr MV report was a double edged sword to the State, had Nel rejected her findings outright, Judge Masipa would has no option but to ignore her report because her assessment of OP mental health was far fetched. She would have been unable to summarize it in her judgement as the report was vague and ambiguous.

If OP doesn’t have rage and anger management issues then all the witnesses who have testified to the contrary must be liars and guilty of perjury. I for one don’t believe Reeva’s was killed in a fit of rage.If his emotions and his very public grieving behavior look genuine to me it indicates he is petrified of the most likely prospect that he will have to spend the rest of his life in prison with hardcore convicts all born and bred in the most deprived townships of SA.
 
Just finished watching today's coverage of final part cross x of van Zyl.
Been concentrating on OP's reactions. Smiles, amusement, irritation on his face, concern, smirks.

I just can't see his responsive reactions to the Nel vs Zyl tussle as typical of someone who is medicated for depression, suicidal, not taking much pleasure from life etc etc. Not expecting a catatonic defendant but he appears to be fully with it, taking pleasure in some parts: all appropriate reactions.

Does anyone else agree? (Or am i being unfair and overly biased against him or maybe just ill informed on depression? )

Rx medications for depression do not make people feel catatonic or elated. They work for many people, but it is not like taking a shot of Whisky, smoking marihuana, or snorting cocaine. There are no immediate noticeable effects. It really is how the patient responds over a period of weeks or months of taking antidepressants. Anti anxiety drugs like Xanax on the other hand do work very fast, 20 minutes, and there can be noticeable changes in a person that takes such medications.

As far as OP smiling and such, IMO he is just being OP. No antidepressant drug is going to change him for better or worse. I believe that he gets off on some of the testimony and cannot help but to smile, laugh inside. He did it during Darren's testimony and he did it when Nel was punching at OP with all of the "I" questions to a witness yesterday. Nel was touching OP inside and OP saw it as pointless and going nowhere, or OP was trying to discount any and all validity of Nel's efforts by outwardly smirking and laughing.
 
Nor should it be one big pity party for the perpetrator as this trial is rapidly becoming-- and yes, he is the perpetrator, not just the "accused"-- let's not forget he is the self-confessed killer. Innocent until proven guilty does not really apply here. He is unquestionably guilty of killing Reeva. It only remains for Judge Masipa and the assessors to reason why.

Actions have consequences, intended or not, and regardless of how sympathetic a character you find him, Oscar needs to be held accountable for his "mistake" that night. Objective analysis does not exclude one's capacity for reason or the ability to remain skeptical in the face of false and misleading evidence. When the defense piles it on this thick, mockery and various emotions, such as disgust, are time-honored responses from the gallery.

:goodpost:
 
Rx medications for depression do not make people feel catatonic or elated. They work for many people, but it is not like taking a shot of Whisky, smoking marihuana, or snorting cocaine. There are no immediate noticeable effects. It really is how the patient responds over a period of weeks or months of taking antidepressants. Anti anxiety drugs like Xanax on the other hand do work very fast, 20 minutes, and there can be noticeable changes in a person that takes such medications.

As far as OP smiling and such, IMO he is just being OP. No antidepressant drug is going to change him for better or worse. I believe that he gets off on some of the testimony and cannot help but to smile, laugh inside. He did it during Darren's testimony and he did it when Nel was punching at OP with all of the "I" questions to a witness yesterday. Nel was touching OP inside and OP saw it as pointless and going nowhere, or OP was trying to discount any and all validity of Nel's efforts by outwardly smirking and laughing.

Thanks Viper - top para really helps.
Second paragraph agreed. And when he smirks and laughs I think you're right- OP thinks its going nowhere and tries to display he's still in control. Pass ME the sick-bucket.
 
Have you spotted the fact that OP would easily win a fight with most able-bodied men of his own age group and knows he would and acts as though he knows it ?

Have you spotted the fact that this does not apply to 99% of disabled people ?

Have you spotted the fact that DT witness and a few other members of the dwindling OP fanclub are trying to give us the impression a guy who could not only beat most of us in a race but could also beat most of us to pulp is in fact a frail vulnerable creature who boy scouts ought to help to cross the road?

Have you spotted the fact that witness claims on this subject are cheerfully contradicting what OP himself regularly did and said in interviews etc before 13 th Feb 2013? Can't shower, regularly falls over, doesn't take off his prostheses in public, etc ?

At this rate you'll be telling us next that it's proved by the psycho-team that he hasn't got anger control or aggressiveness issues.

"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." (Alice in Wonderland)

BBM

:goodpost:
 
Awesome stuff Zwiebel! Thank you. As a courtesy, here is a non-mobile version link to the one that you kindly provided:

https://twitter.com/karynmaughan

Thanks again.
As an aside, the increase in attacks against disabled people in the UK after the paralympic games probably isn't related to the paralympics (as per her twitter). It actually began before. As part of welfare reform, the government here has painted many disabled people as scroungers and fraudsters. It's believed to be contributing to widespread abuse against the disabled. Unfortunately, it's something I'm far too well acquainted with.


http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/aug/14/disability-hate-crime-benefit-scrounger-abuse

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/feb/05/benefit-cuts-fuelling-abuse-disabled-people

http://www.update.org.uk/news-detail.php?page=193

http://www.poverty.ac.uk/news-stori...-hate-crime-–-‘benefit-scrounger’-abuse-blame

http://www.mencap.org.uk/news/article/disabled-people-suffering-benefit-scroungers-label
 
I don't understand what you don't understand about the concept of what a trial is. OP is innocent until proven guilty. That 20 regular posters here think he is guilty doesn't make him so. Repeating speculations and opinions does not magically convert them into facts, and that includes whether or not the two had a fight that night.

And yes, it's a sad and maddening fact of all trials that the victim is "forgotten."
I would hazard a guess it's a heckuva lot more than 20 people who happen to post here. A British yougov poll was conducted March 4th and 5th. Out of 1834 respondents only 7% believed him innocent.

http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/qalj72jrl3/YG-Archive-140305-Oscar-P.pdf
 
Well I've 'sleuthed' the mystery of all Oscars notes and messages to his team and I think at least?................a bronze award should be appropriate for my endeavours:).

Check out ..............and remember he's 'fighting for his life here !!'

Session 1 Tuesday 1st July at around 6.15.

Water boys and girls at 40k/day..................unreal !

And I thought his notes and messages were relevant to the case...........seemingly not eh ?
 
Oldwage : I am surprised and take exception to Mr. Nel's objection… but here are copies of some jurisprudence I have prepared in advance and my arguments which I have obviously already rehearsed.

Is Oldwage taking Masipa for a fool by accident or is the Defence simply buying some time on purpose for yet another expert witness to finish writing their reports ?
 
I don't understand what you don't understand about the concept of what a trial is. OP is innocent until proven guilty. That 20 regular posters here think he is guilty doesn't make him so. Repeating speculations and opinions does not magically convert them into facts, and that includes whether or not the two had a fight that night.

And yes, it's a sad and maddening fact of all trials that the victim is "forgotten."

I think you highly underestimate the number of posters, regular or otherwise, who believe that OP is guilty.
WS is a true crime discussion forum, not a court a law. Just as you are entitled to your opinions concerning this trial, so aren't we.
And we all openly discuss, speculate, hash and rehash every minuscule detail. That's what we do here. IIRC, testimony has been introduced that there was an argument that night. In fact, the argument was heard by an independent witness, who had nothing to gain by coming forward.
OP is guilty of killing Reeva. He has admitted to shooting and killing Reeva.
 
This is interesting, sort of. I like the comments that follow too: :smile:

https://twitter.com/karynmaughan/status/484307235737452544

And I have not seen the following information posted. It may be part of exhibit PPP too, IDK. But it won't let the hyperlink work for you to click on, so here is the entire TwitLonger Tweet post from a CNN reporter:

RAGreeneCNN · @RAGreeneCNN
2nd Jul 2014 from TwitLonger

#OscarPistorius: Mental health conclusions in full - as read into court record by Barry Roux:
From my assessment of Mr Pistorius and with the information currently at my disposal I come to the following conclusions. Five point one, Mr Pistorius has been severely traumatised by the events that took place on Feb. 14, 2013. He currently suffers from a post-traumatic stress disorder, and a major depressive disorder as defined by a Diagnostic and Statistical Manual V, (DSM-V), C A section C. The degree of anxiety and depression that is present is significant. He is also mourning the loss of Miss Steenkamp.

Five point two, Mr Pistorius is being treated and should continue to receive clinical care by a psychiatrist and a clinical psychologist for his current condition. Should he not receive proper clinical care, his condition is likely to worsen and increase the risk for suicide and in a reference to, to references.

Five point three, no evidence could be found to indicate that Mr Pistorius has the history of abnormal aggression of explosive violence. Abnormal aggression and violence was never incorporated into his personality as borne out by both psychometric testing and collateral information. He does not display the personality characteristics of narcissism and or psychopathy that are mostly associated with men in abusive relationships and have been linked to rage type murders in intimate relationships. Those who know him describe him as gentle, respectful and conflict avoidant. The times when he did become angry were found to be suitable for the situation or context. His style of conflict resolution is to talk through the situation or remove himself from the situation. He also has the ability to self-reflect afterwards mostly leading to feelings of guilt and an apology from him. His ability to regulate this effect is well-developed.

Five point four, there is evidence to indicate that Mr Pistorius does have a history of feeling insecure and vulnerable, especially when he is without his prostheses. He has also been exposed to crime directly and indirectly throughout his life. A reaction to a threatening situation comprises more than fight or flight, an appraisal takes place instantly whereby the individual assesses firstly the intensity of the threat and then his position to cope with the threat. These appraisals are influenced by amongst other things previous experience. When Mr Pistorius’s appraisal of the situation is that he might be physically threatened, a fear response follows that might seem extraordinary when viewed from the perspective of a normal-bodied person, but normal in the context of a disabled person with his history.

Five point five, no evidence could be found to indicate that Mr Pistorius suffered from anxiety to the extent that it impaired his functioning prior to the incident in February 2013. He specifically does not meet criteria D for the DSM-V for the generalised anxiety disorder, quote the anxiety worry or physical symptoms caused clinically, significant distress or impairment in social occupational or other important areas of functioning. That’s also referred to in a section C.

If his context is taken into account his function was superior prior to the incident in February 2013. For somebody of his age his achievements in both his occupation and the social fear were enormous. The successful intimate relationship he craved and his inability to rehabilitate his relationship with his father being the only areas where he achieved less success.

Five point six there is evidence to indicate that Mr Pistorius was genuine with his feelings towards Miss Steenkamp and that they had a normal loving relationship. He did become insecure and jealous at times but this was normal for the specific situation. He would express his displeasure and irritation but would try and sort it out later by talking with Miss Steenkamp. Although the relationship was still young, there were no signs of abusive coercion like those often found in these kinds of relationships and in reference to previous works by experts. In his previous long-term relationship of four years these aspects were also absent. And in the findings which were previously read into the record just as to his mental state.
 
Viper - from that text:

Those who know him describe him as gentle, respectful and conflict avoidant.


Now I'm wondering just who it was they evaluated! Who are these people who described him that way, his family? Clearly they didn't speak to any of the people he raged at in his 'gentle and respectful' manner. Conflict avoidant? In what universe!

ETA - Did any of the psyche team talk to members of Reeva's family or her friends? I'm thinking not.
 
For those that believe the state hasn't proven intent I would be curious as to your opinion considering the most recent evidence presented by the defense?
OP is hyperviligient and very concerned with safety, he always checks a room for an escape route.
OP is very vulnerable when on his stumps moreso when on tile or in the dark.
He has mobility issues on his stumps and it is quite painful to walk on them.
Being disabled he has more fear of being assaulted.
If not to shoot the intruder, what was his intent when he chose to walk down that hall into the bathroom with a loaded ready to fire gun?
 
I know you are not inferring this, but if the court would accept that it is reasonable for a disabled person to shoot 4 bullets through a locked bathroom door because he had a fright, I don't think I'd want to hang out with anyone that has a disability.

It would set way to broad of a precedent. Let's hope it doesn't come to this.

IMHO, I agree with you entirely.

The 4 shots is one helluva bluebottle in the ointment for OP to have a proper putative self defence claim and walk. I mean, people "jumping the gun" shooting loved ones and not so loved ones, as intruders without a visual, and without checking or warning first seems sadly only too frequent where people have easy access to guns. But "four shots", well that's a real hard sell to any judge or jury no matter where, although I could imagine a Grand Jury in some states might acquit since I have read of cases much worse. And before you jump on my using "worse" as if I have no feelings for the victim Reeva, I am ONLY referring to the, "OP shot at a burglar scenario", NOT the, "OP shot Reeva purposefully and intentionally through a toilet door" scenario.

Still for sure the defence will give it their best shot ;-) so I am not betting either way yet, as despite my main thoughts being CH I still have doubts it could end in a murder of a burglar verdict. I am impatient to read the judgement, whatever it is, and see the reasoning. IMHO much more interesting than a jury trial where deliberation are secret... at least here in the UK.
JMHOSNNFS,I,OR
 
Great to have it posted.

This is the Defence appointed psychologist Leon Fine I suppose. He's happy to have that quoted into the record of course. Do the other 3 psychiatrists need to be unanimous on that or just the criminally responsible point? I want to see Fine x-d by Nel but looks like no chance of that now.

Apparently they are withholding rest of report on basis/excuse that it refers to private details about OP family members. ( Same law firm that fought for right to televise trial maybe be fighting the restriction.)
 
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