Trial Discussion Thread #47 - 14.07.8, Day 38

[AJ_DS]

No, I've been out all day and have not turned on the television. What was the name of that song that OP liked to blast Reeva with? LOL!!! Oh no, I just did a quick Google and it shows 1-7? Really?

Yep ! :tantrum:

Don't kill my vibe… or something to that affect

 

[AJ_DS]

Just my luck, when I stopped exercising I gained 10kg.:tantrum:

:floorlaugh:

 

[Viper]

It has been said here that Uncle Arnold has millions and millions of dollars and could bankroll the legal fees easily and willingly. Ok, lets say that is true. But if so, then why did he not step in to help? OP apparently has had to sell off everything from his horses to his own home. OP is now pennyless and is living with a wealthy close relative. He's also unemployed and has no job prospects. And he has psychological issues, including the fact that he is a suicide risk and he is a danger to others if he has access to a gun, per Dr. V. He is a single man with no wife and no children. If he is convicted and Masipa gives him 15-25 years in prison, is he a flight risk?

BTW, why did OP sell his house in the middle of the trial, when things were not going so well? Uncle Arnold surely could have stepped in with a loan or a gift for the same amount.

 

[AJ_DS]

It has been said here that Uncle Arnold has millions and millions of dollars and could bankroll the legal fees easily and willingly. Ok, lets say that is true. But if so, then why did he not step in to help? OP apparently has had to sell off everything from his horses to his own home. OP is now pennyless and is living with a wealthy close relative. He's also unemployed and has no job prospects. And he has psychological issues, including the fact that he is a suicide risk and he is a danger to others if he has access to a gun, per Dr. V. He is a single man with no wife and no children. If he is convicted and Masipa gives him 15-25 years in prison, is he a flight risk?

BTW, why did OP sell his house in the middle of the trial, when things were not going so well? Uncle Arnold surely could have stepped in with a loan for the same amount.

Uncle Arnold is very wealthy… so is the Pistorius clan… it's a family empire that spans many generations… old money.

Selling OP's house had nothing to do with fund gathering… OP had already planned moving to Joburg before the event and he would surely not want to live there anymore post-event.

Giving the impression that he is putting everything he owns to fight to prove his innocence works in his favor.

OP is not a flight risk… he wasn't before the Trial and will not be after the verdict.

 

[JudgeJudi]

<Respectfully snipped>

It's very humbling to have to ask, but what are "Heads of Arguments"?

The final factual and legal argument made by each counsel prior to a verdict or judgment. By summarising the facts, evidence and testimony presented during the trial, it will attempt to deal a fatal blow to the opposing case while definitively proving it’s own. The prosecutor will have time for a rebuttal argument because the burden of proof is on the prosecution and so he is allowed to reply to the defence’s closing argument.

 

[luvmygarden]

It has been said here that Uncle Arnold has millions and millions of dollars and could bankroll the legal fees easily and willingly. Ok, lets say that is true. But if so, then why did he not step in to help? OP apparently has had to sell off everything from his horses to his own home. OP is now pennyless and is living with a wealthy close relative. He's also unemployed and has no job prospects. And he has psychological issues, including the fact that he is a suicide risk and he is a danger to others if he has access to a gun, per Dr. V. He is a single man with no wife and no children. If he is convicted and Masipa gives him 15-25 years in prison, is he a flight risk?

BTW, why did OP sell his house in the middle of the trial, when things were not going so well? Uncle Arnold surely could have stepped in with a loan or a gift for the same amount.

OP wants to be penniless so he doesn't have to pay for lawsuits. If he can't have it no one else will get it. Maybe claim he owed Uncle money. But it is probably in safe keeping. If the Anthony's think that way by all means a man with lots of money will surely think that way.

I am surprised OP didn't mind coming off as a big cry baby through out this whole thing. I have not seen anything like it. Oh wait the guns make him look like Mr. tough guy so I guess he can cry all he wants.

 

[vansleuths]

I doubt Masipa will not allow appeals

("It’s very unlikely that the application will be refused because in asmuch as Masipa will feel confident in her handling of the matter and her judgment she will also know that the appeal process is a natural step in trial process and a full bench of 3/5 judges could find differently to her")

i.e. if she denies the appeal process there's a bigger chance he'll get off in a larger appeal to the Supreme court where there are more judges to convince.

Thus, I guess the question we all have (and the answer hopefully to be in the affirmative) is can OP be put away for the gun charges at least so his lengthy appeal process can't keep him roaming around as a freeman and will take place from inside? (if found guilty of murder,of course).

This could be a great compromise for Masipa. She knows that she won't close the appeal process but if she can get him put away for the gun charges while he makes his murder appeal, there's somewhat more justice there.

Otherwise yes, it seems justice will be on the back burner for another year or so.

He could potentially serve up to 5 years on each of the gun charges and 15 years on the illegal ammo. As a first offender, he is more likely to be fined.

If he was to be sentenced to jail on these charges, what's to say he wouldn't appeal them as well, after all, OP feels he is innocent of all charges put against him

 

[vansleuths]

Especially if he is relying on his stellar defense team for the appeal.

He should hire Dixon. I hear when he's not working as a ballistician, geologist, pathologist, sound expert, light expert (did I miss any), he moonlights as a lawyer.

 

[Viper]

Uncle Arnold is very wealthy… so is the Pistorius clan… it's a family empire that spans many generations… old money.

Selling OP's house had nothing to do with fund gathering… OP had already planned moving to Joburg before the event and he would surely not want to live there anymore post-event.

Giving the impression that he is putting everything he owns to fight to prove his innocence works in his favor.

OP is not a flight risk… he wasn't before the Trial and will not be after the verdict.

Think long term not short term. Selling everything that he has leaves him pennyless and unable to support a life in exile, and that would be the ideal story to tell Masipa if he tries to get bail after his conviction. But Arnold can support him. There was no reason to sell his home in the middle of the trial other than to reduce his assets to try to claim that he could not support a life on the run if he decides to flee.

A single man with no children, no job, no income, no connection to his community, in his 20's, a world traveler with a passport, convicted of murder and condemned to 15-25 years in a SA prison is most definitely a flight risk.

Here is a link to very similar murderer trying to get bail while on appeal after her conviction. Wollie and Mangena battle again, Mangena wins of course. Spoiler alert: she was denied bail:

http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2013/1.pdf

 

[vansleuths]

BBM - that's why I said I wondered if the judge could legally refuse a grant for appeal. Surely OP won't appeal the gun charges? Can the judge refuse an appeal for those and allow an appeal for the killing? That way, OP could go to jail for one of the charges and await an appeal for the other. It just doesn't sit right that Reeva's family should have to tolerate his indefinite freedom when he's the reason Reeva's life ended in a toilet. How can they ever move on if he's allowed to roam free for years?

BIB Despite whether you feel Amanda Knox is guilty or innocent, the fact that there is still no resolution to the 2007 murder case of Meredith Kercher, results in the Kercher family being unable to move on, some 7 years later.

The same will happen to Reeva's family.

In fact, this happens in so many trials. How long did OJ roam the streets until he was brought in on other charges. However that whole time, the Goldman and Brown family also had no closure.

 

[Viper]

If memory serves me right, Roux objected to it at the bail hearing and was overruled in the interest of the public and an open court. The judge said it would be chaos if it wasn't televised with the number of reporters and people that would be interested and televising it was the best option.

I believe that someone needs to research this and post the true fact. IIRC some very high court judge ruled that it should be televised, and if it was not it would be a disservice to the country. A judge well above Masipa and any appellate court judges directly above her. The title of President Judge is in my recollection.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Okay, thanks. There's much more detail here.

http://www.biznews.com/oscar-pistorius-trial/2014/07/pistorius-guilty-can-appeal-win/

"Moreover his bail will be extended to the hearing of the appeal so assuming he is sentenced to prison he will at least buy himself a bit more time at home pending the outcome of the appeal".

Thank you soozie. This is an excellent find and pretty well covers everything re the appeal process.

 

[Viper]

Thank you soozie. This is an excellent find and pretty well covers everything re the appeal process.

What?

 

[AJ_DS]

Think long term not short term. Selling everything that he has leaves him pennyless and unable to support a life in exile, and that would be the ideal story to tell Masipa if he tries to get bail after his conviction. But Arnold can support him. There was no reason to sell his home in the middle of the trial other than to reduce his assets to try to claim that he could not support a life on the run if he decides to flee.

A single man with no children, no job, no income, no connection to his community, in his 20's, a world traveler with a passport, convicted of murder and condemned to 15-25 years in a SA prison is most definitely a flight risk.

Here is a link to very similar murderer trying to get bail while on appeal after her conviction. Wollie and Mangena battle again, Mangena wins of course. Spoiler alert: she was denied bail:

http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2013/1.pdf

Great link&#8230; but circumstances are significantly different in OP's case IMO

All you have stated makes sense

Consider these additional points :

- OP is very recognizable&#8230; he was so before the event and even more after the event&#8230; not easy to hide when your face is so well known and your a double amputee

- His large family is implanted in SA for many generations and have deep ties and roots to SA, the community, etc&#8230; they would all vouch for OP with a stack of affidavits

- The conditions of his bail could be adjusted to take into account the post-verdict situation&#8230; e.g. no passport, no leaving the country, house arrest, electronic monitoring, larger bail amount, etc&#8230; many available options

- Not sure about the no income&#8230; his bail affidavit stated that his income was about $560,000 per annum&#8230; no details about this income&#8230; surely some or all of it was from sponsors&#8230; some or all could be gone but maybe not.

- OP has shown that he has respected the conditions of his bail so far&#8230; so no immediate reason to doubt that he would not continue to do so.

- The merits and foreseeable success of his Appeal would also play a role

 

[JudgeJudi]

Here's a summary of the entire defence case.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...us-murder-trial-the-case-for-the-defence.html

 

[AJ_DS]

I guess that was my point, why don't they submit on the same day.

The way it is now, the DT has the ability to read the PT's heads of argument and then amend theirs. The PT does not have this benefit because they have already submitted theirs.

Justice is not about ambush, surprises or cheating&#8230; if it was done orally, DT would hear the PT's arguments before submitting theirs&#8230; so the same applies in writing&#8230; don't see the problem

 

[K.T]

I believe that someone needs to research this and post the true fact. IIRC some very high court judge ruled that it should be televised, and if it was not it would be a disservice to the country. A judge well above Masipa and any appellate court judges directly above her. The title of President Judge is in my recollection.

First article I found, sorry I did not provide a link when I mentioned in another post it that another Judge at the high court approved a "live broadcast" with certain limitations though teh defense team had "failed in their bid to stop any part of the trial being broadcast"

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...-broadcast-30040358.html#sthash.HrKrP3Re.dpuf

Judge Mlambo, sitting in the Pretoria High Court, said that there were several issues that were considered in permitting broadcast of the highly publicized criminal case: right to a fair trial, freedom of expression and the open justice principle. &#8220;Court proceedings are in fact public, and this objective must be recognized,&#8221; the judge said responding to 27-year-old Pistorius&#8217; concern that television coverage would compromise his right to a fair trial. &#8220;It is in my view in the public interest that, within allowable limits, the goings-on during the trial be covered as I have come to decide,&#8221; ruled the judge of the three-week trial which is set to hear from more than 100 witnesses.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/faraigu...o-televising-murder-trial-of-oscar-pistorius/

 

[Val1]

First article I found, sorry I did not provide a link when I mentioned in another post it that another Judge at the high court approved a "live broadcast" with certain limitations though teh defense team had "failed in their bid to stop any part of the trial being broadcast"

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...-broadcast-30040358.html#sthash.HrKrP3Re.dpuf
http://www.forbes.com/sites/faraigu...o-televising-murder-trial-of-oscar-pistorius/

Yes and to speak to the whole witnesses being scared off:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/feb/25/oscar-pistorius-trial-broadcast-live-tv-south-africa

A live audio feed of the proceedings will be permitted through the trial, with restrictions imposed if witnesses object 24 hours in advance to their testimony being heard.

 

[K.T]

Hmmm, I was looking at Scholtz's psychology report.

On the Personality Assessment Inventory test, there are about 20 results and 3 noteworthy scores (Scholtz says scores of 50-70 are normal):

• Depression is 78
• Stress is 73
• not really a surprise given the post-incident circumstances

• Warmth is 35. This means OP measures significantly low on this test of warmth, outside the normal range, and in fact this is the standout result in terms of the numbers.
  [*]The report states: "Warmth (WRM) - The WRM scale provides a measure of the extent to which an individual is empathic and engaging versus withdrawing, rejecting and mistrustful in interpersonal relationships. Item content involves being sociable, sympathetic, affectionate, and patient with others."

Whilst there is specific discussion about lots of the other results, this particular test result of warmth is ignored completely by Scholtz...

Thanks for the post and analysis, important.

Finally finished reading the report and there's a lot things I individually question, but here's some general thoughts:

That low score on &#8220;warmth&#8221; is interesting and the fact it is disregarded in the report is problematic - this could have made an impact, especially in regard to negative relationship and attachment issues.

Scholtz&#8217;s report seems overly sympathetic to Pistorius. Probably due to Pistorius self-reporting and the interviews with his biased, doting family, coaches and friends. I think the report is highly subjective, I would have expected more equivocation.

Again, the psychological interpretations of Pistorius&#8217; stories feels slightly outdated/old-fashioned. And culturally the bar about male aggression and appropriate behavior seems set quite low. Some of the gender and religion comments can be critiqued and, as in any report, if other studies were quoted you could come up with a different perspective.

Was Pistorius was coached on psychologist tests in terms of &#8216;narcissism&#8217; and regulated his answers so that would not be tailored to avoid indicators of NPD?

After seeing all the detailed &#8216;re-enactment&#8217; planning that Pistorius made for evidence room camera crew, I think he Pistorius could have had &#8216;psych&#8217; coaching with his personal psychologist as well as voice coaching. He has spent his life working to &#8220;beat the system&#8221;. Plus the tonal voice changing he did at the trial, was different again in the various the Channel 7 sound re-enactments. IMO

 

[JudgeJudi]

Sunday Night video:

in the reconstruction, where OP is not only talking, but playing/being him, why didn't he became emotional?

Because he wasn't playing to an audience.