Trial Discussion Thread #47 - 14.07.8, Day 38

[Val1]

Great link… but circumstances are significantly different in OP's case IMO

All you have stated makes sense

Consider these additional points :

- OP is very recognizable… he was so before the event and even more after the event… not easy to hide when your face is so well known and your a double amputee

- His large family is implanted in SA for many generations and have deep ties and roots to SA, the community, etc… they would all vouch for OP with a stack of affidavits

- The conditions of his bail could be adjusted to take into account the post-verdict situation… e.g. no passport, no leaving the country, house arrest, electronic monitoring, larger bail amount, etc… many available options

- Not sure about the no income… his bail affidavit stated that his income was about $560,000 per annum… no details about this income… surely some or all of it was from sponsors… some or all could be gone but maybe not.

- OP has shown that he has respected the conditions of his bail so far… so no immediate reason to doubt that he would not continue to do so.

- The merits and foreseeable success of his Appeal would also play a role

bbm - Not hard to do since he managed to get pretty much all of the conditions taken off... imo I would say he broke the first conditions by appealing so quickly to have them changed after saying he would abide by them. Also, he has left the country and not for purposes of which the conditions had stated, so unless he was also granted the ability to travel the world as long as he gave notice he was leaving the country big frikkin deal.

 

[vansleuths]

I believe that someone needs to research this and post the true fact. IIRC some very high court judge ruled that it should be televised, and if it was not it would be a disservice to the country. A judge well above Masipa and any appellate court judges directly above her. The title of President Judge is in my recollection.

In the first ruling of its kind in the country, judge Dunstan Mlambo has said that three small, unmanned cameras will broadcast live part of the murder trial of Mr Pistorius, the South African paralympian, accused of shooting his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp.

The broadcast, agreed to following requests from South African media groups, will include a live audio recording of the trial, as well as video footage of the lawyers’ opening and closing arguments, the evidence of experts and the fateful final judgment and any subsequent sentencing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ius-murder-trial-to-be-televised-9151596.html

 

[ColonelMustard]

Soooo, I just finished watching the Nel/Derman cross, again, for about the 5th time. I can't help laughing out loud at the complete absurdity of so much of it. It's a fiasco of communication that defies intelligent thought, a comedy of errors.

The first time I watched this, I was doing something else at the same time (maybe posting here!). At that time, I thought Nel was confused. On all subsequent (gotta watch that word!) viewings, I realized it was Derman. This evening, it dawned on me that, once things became confused, Nel milked it for all it was worth. If can't discredit a witness, confuse them into apparent idiocy.

It was clear, pretty early on (because Derman clearly said it at least 3 times), that he was discussing, "Lady, I ran" with no time or location constraints. Nel had to have heard that and understood it - Nel's no fool - but Nel kept going back asking crazy questions like, "So, he told you, in response to that question, that he didn't run" and "he told you he didn't run in the corridor?"

I really, really think Nel contributed mightily to confusing the clueless Derman, tying him up in knots, creating contradictory statements, etc.

Many of you may have figured this out more quickly than me, others may not agree. But, I think Nel is too smart not to have understood (after a fashion) AND too smart simply to let the opportunity pass and/or helping Derman by acknowledging his clear, repeated statements, Lady, I can't recall where or when it occurred in the record. My reason for bringing only had to do with seeing what he meant about that.

There is nothing in this trial that warrants any levity, I know, but when Oldwage chimed in confusing things "times ten", then said, "M'lady I'm sorry, I'm hard of hearing and don't know what you said," at which point Nel "slaps" his hand to his forehead in disbelief, I almost spit out my pop every time.


Nel IS a genious!!!

 

[AlwaysShocked]

That earlier posted heart -breaking picture of Reeva's bullet ridden body lying lifeless and alone at the bottom of OP's stairs, really brings it home just how utterly disgusting it is for the final DT witness to rabbit on for hours about her killer having to suffer blisters on his stumps and having to live with sweaty prosthetics etc. Is he oblivious to the fact that this guy blasted a beautiful young woman with four bullets almost amputating her arm , crushing her hip and blowing her brains out of her skull. My goodness it enough to make your blood boil with rage !!!

Oh my, yes, whiterum. That particular picture was just gut-wrenching. The loneliness of it. I had not seen it before. And when I looked at it, I hoped her parents did not see that picture.

-------------------------

Can anyone run it past me one more time what the role is of the two assistants to the judge? Do they just get to assist her with evidence and case law or do they actually get to tell her their own opinion but then she gets to make the final decision?

I've never been really clear on how this works.

 

[Val1]

Soooo, I just finished watching the Nel/Derman cross, again, for about the 5th time. I can't help laughing out loud at the complete absurdity of so much of it. It's a fiasco of communication that defies intelligent thought, a comedy of errors.

The first time I watched this, I was doing something else at the same time (maybe posting here!). At that time, I thought Nel was confused. On all subsequent (gotta watch that word!) viewings, I realized it was Derman. This evening, it dawned on me that, once things became confused, Nel milked it for all it was worth. If can't discredit a witness, confuse them into apparent idiocy.

It was clear, pretty early on (because Derman clearly said it at least 3 times), that he was discussing, "Lady, I ran" with no time or location constraints. Nel had to have heard that and understood it - Nel's no fool - but Nel kept going back asking crazy questions like, "So, he told you, in response to that question, that he didn't run" and "he told you he didn't run in the corridor?"

I really, really think Nel contributed mightily to confusing the clueless Derman, tying him up in knots, creating contradictory statements, etc.

Many of you may have figured this out more quickly than me, others may not agree. But, I think Nel is too smart not to have understood (after a fashion) AND too smart simply to let the opportunity pass and/or helping Derman by acknowledging his clear, repeated statements, Lady, I can't recall where or when it occurred in the record. My reason for bringing only had to do with seeing what he meant about that.

There is nothing in this trial that warrants any levity, I know, but when Oldwage chimed in confusing things "times ten", then said, "M'lady I'm sorry, I'm hard of hearing and don't know what you said," at which point Nel "slaps" his hand to his forehead in disbelief, I almost spit out my pop every time.


Nel IS a genious!!!

I've often wondered what O and Uncle A listen to on those hearing things, it certainly can't be the trial if you go by their demeanor...

 

[JudgeJudi]

Bit late in the day for Johnson's telephone number and Burger's photo though. And let's face it every time a witness came in there were frantic attempts here and in other blogs to find a photo, a cv, i.e. glean anything and everything possible about them.
Personally, I can only say I hope the UK system of pre-trial total media blackout continues. It seems fairer to me although no doubt many Brits, especially many on here, would prefer otherwise.

Websleuths is, a sleuthing forum. We don't just come here to give our opinions. We're here to find out everything we can about every witness and every piece of evidence (sleuthing), discuss same, and then give our opinions.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Colonel Mustard, I agree with your assessment of the good doctor and Nel's interactions. At times it was almost like a "Who's on first?" routine! And yes, surely Nel has been cross examining pompous little azzes for many, many years. But there were actually a few times that I thought even Nel was starting to get lost into the confusion. But maybe not.

Agree that the best line was Oldwage when he said "I can't hear, M'lady" I was laughing out loud at the screen by then.

I thought this cross examination was one of the best days of the this trial. Other than Oscar whining, wailing and puking, of course.

 

[jay-jay]

1. Since the guy in the video said he was using the same fans, perhaps he has the "missing" cord and since the DT and family were the ones commissioning it and supplying the furniture and location, at least for the initial work on it, I'm sure they were well aware that the PT did not and never had collected any of those items as evidence.

~rsbm~

I had understood they were using the exact same fans but they weren't .. that large fan is not the same fan as the one in the photos of the crime scene. I was also surprised in the re-enactment video where it shows OP (or an actor playing him) moving the fans, and he appears to move the fan from behind which isn't what OP said in his testimony to court .. he said he moved the fan with his back to the bed, so that can only mean that he moved the fan from the front (or possibly the side) with it blowing directly in his face (and not really anywhere to lift it with his hands .. I mean, who the heck ever picks up a fan from the front?? .. they would go round to the back of the fan and pick it up from there, but OP cannot do that as it would mean he would've been facing the bed).

 

[JudgeJudi]

Sadder still that lay witnesses who were brave enough to testify in front of an international audience were treated in such a callous, haphazard manner. How many potential witnesses will decide in the future that being belittled to tears or having their phone number publicised - only to be threatened over their testimony - just isn't worth it?

JMO

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

Absolutely. I also think expert witnesses will think twice and that $250 a day isn't worth the potential damage to their reputation.

OT: Welcome back. Haven't seen you here for some time and have missed your input.

 

[44ALLAN]

Oh my, yes, whiterum. That particular picture was just gut-wrenching. The loneliness of it. I had not seen it before. And when I looked at it, I hoped her parents did not see that picture.

-------------------------

Can anyone run it past me one more time what the role is of the two assistants to the judge? Do they just get to assist her with evidence and case law or do they actually get to tell her their own opinion but then she gets to make the final decision?

I've never been really clear on how this works.

Sorry for being morbid but where is this picture of Reeva's 'bullet riddled' body?
I haven't seen that?

 

[Val1]

~rsbm~

I had understood they were using the exact same fans but they weren't .. that large fan is not the same fan as the one in the photos of the crime scene. I was also surprised in the re-enactment video where it shows OP (or an actor playing him) moving the fans, and he appears to move the fan from behind which isn't what OP said in his testimony to court .. he said he moved the fan with his back to the bed, so that can only mean that he moved the fan from the front (or possibly the side) with it blowing directly in his face (and not really anywhere to lift it with his hands .. I mean, who the heck ever picks up a fan from the front?? .. they would go round to the back of the fan and pick it up from there, but OP cannot do that as it would mean he would've been facing the bed).

All I had grabbed from the video before it went awol again was this image of the fans.. they look the same to me as the ones lisasalinger has in her blog from the evidence pics.



http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

 

[Val1]

Anyone else having trouble posting? It keeps telling me to refresh the page that the token has expired...

 

[Interested Bystander]

Anyone else having trouble posting? It keeps telling me to refresh the page that the token has expired...

Testing for Val1

 

[Interested Bystander]

Seems to be working for me Val1

 

[kittychi]

OP wants to be penniless so he doesn't have to pay for lawsuits. If he can't have it no one else will get it. Maybe claim he owed Uncle money. But it is probably in safe keeping. If the Anthony's think that way by all means a man with lots of money will surely think that way.

I am surprised OP didn't mind coming off as a big cry baby through out this whole thing. I have not seen anything like it. Oh wait the guns make him look like Mr. tough guy so I guess he can cry all he wants.

BBN...I hope that any money awarded to the Steenkamps was put in escrow, then.

 

[kaos]

I remember watching that and he paused for quite a while after Nel asked what he'd said to the invisible intruder. Then when he finally repeated the words, there was a lot of emotion in his voice like he was going over what he'd screamed at Reeva just before he killed her. Also, who yells at an intruder to 'get the f*ck out of my house' and then shoots them before they've had a chance to 'get the f*ck' out of the house? Oh, and that mega long 30-second pause when Nel asked if he'd heard Reeva scream after the first shot. That was the point I really thought he was going to break down and confess... or that the video feed had broken down! Both of those long pauses really stood out for me as signs he was lying.

As for Nel, we have to hope he knows exactly what he's doing. He's been up against Roux before, and won, and I think he's done a great job of demolishing almost all of the DT's 'experts'. Roux is the one who put non experts up on the stand so he must have known this would happen. With OP as a client, one has to feel some sympathy for him!

And yeah, OP just needed to have a teeny weeny little gun to ward off predators who made loud noises. I wish they'd flashed up a giant sized pic of his collection at that point, and then listed all the other guns he had on order!!!

I've actually interrupted a burglary at my house and said to the guy "get out of my house" but I didn't have a gun and he had the opportunity to flee - which he took. OP however never gave any chance to the person in the toilet and his words and the way he's stuck to that phrase throughout make me think he was unsure as to exactly what the ear witnesses could have heard. He knew they heard screams but had to cover himself for the possibility that one of them (Estelle Van der Merwe?) could also have heard his words.

The Professor said he carried around a "light gun". Is the gun he used considered a light piece?

BIB I read this elsewhere, could Milady saw no when asked for a leave to appeal?

Agree with the answer but still don't understand the question LOL

Are you mourning as I am ?

Presumably a typo - could Milady say no when asked...

 

[jay-jay]

All I had grabbed from the video before it went awol again was this image of the fans.. they look the same to me as the ones lisasalinger has in her blog from the evidence pics.

View attachment 54476

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/
View attachment 54477
View attachment 54478

Oh, that's weird .. yes, you're right .. that fan is the same design .. it must be another part of the vid I saw then .. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[jay-jay]

Oh, that's weird .. yes, you're right .. that fan is the same design .. it must be another part of the vid I saw then .. I'll see if I can find it.

.. yes, it was in the programme's reconstruction of the room as opposed to the animation itself .. that's where I got confused!



.. they might have had the dimensions of that room right, but there was so much else in it that wasn't! .. like the mess on the floor on the balcony side, for instance ..

 

[Interested Bystander]

~rsbm~

I had understood they were using the exact same fans but they weren't .. that large fan is not the same fan as the one in the photos of the crime scene. I was also surprised in the re-enactment video where it shows OP (or an actor playing him) moving the fans, and he appears to move the fan from behind which isn't what OP said in his testimony to court .. he said he moved the fan with his back to the bed, so that can only mean that he moved the fan from the front (or possibly the side) with it blowing directly in his face (and not really anywhere to lift it with his hands .. I mean, who the heck ever picks up a fan from the front?? .. they would go round to the back of the fan and pick it up from there, but OP cannot do that as it would mean he would've been facing the bed).

I agree with you he said his back was to the bed. If the change in his reenactment is to be believed, the light from the balcony, which we know was on and still on when the police arrived, would have shone into the bedroom. How could he not have seen the bed and therefore Reeva? It seems OP shoots himself in the foot with his every move!

This aspect of the trial exercises me somewhat! So I did an experiment with a fan in our bedroom (I think Judgejudi did the same or was it someone else). The fan was not as large - about 14" inches but it was of the standard type (ie with a pedestal). Carrying the fan, I could not hear my OH close a bedroom door hard some 20ft away. The window in OP's alibi is about 30ft or more away, ie past the cupboards, along the corridor to the bathroom and a further 10 ft on from there. I have just had to do it again because I was sure he said his back was to the bed but the reenactment shows him to be behind the fan. Quite frankly I couldn't hear the bedroom door being hard closed on either occasion. The noise of the fan completely obliterated any other sounds. I know my fan was not the same but his was much larger and I think his would have created more wind sound.

Why on earth didn't forensics carry out this exercise? I am sure it would have proved the window could not have been heard above the noise of the fan and that would have determined OP's innocence or guilt (IMO) at the outset.

Like many here, I think the reenactment could not be used because it did not tie in with OP's evidence. In fact I think it may have incriminated him.

 

[jay-jay]

but the reenactment shows him to be behind the fan.

~rsbm~

... well, again .. I think the re-enactments are being confused .. they seem to have done one for the programme and then there are the original ones made by that animation company .. and the re-enactment by the programme makers shows him moving the fan (and not the original fan, either, but the one shown in the screenshot I posted upthread) is the one where it's shown as being from behind* .. at 15:55 in (if you can get past the adverts!) http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x211pto_oscar-pistorius-sunday-night-2014-07-06_news


*actually, I think he (the actor) may have picked it up from that front in that reconstruction, too (by grabbing the support pole underneath the fan that is facing him ) .. the actual animation definitely shows OP grabbing the fan by the circular cage surrounding the fan and pulling it forward (with his back to the bed) but who grabs a fan like that?? No-one does, unless they want their fingers chopped off!