Trial Discussion Thread #47 - 14.07.8, Day 38

[Nausicaa]

Misleading comment in the Telegraph, listing GAD as one of the reasons why Pistorius might be acquitted.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-10-reasons-why-he-is-guilty-or-innocent.html

The Telegraph was struggling to find ten true things to say in favour of acquittal, in order to appear balanced. They didn't succeed.

 

[luvmygarden]

If he's convicted, he could still appeal to the supreme court, where three to five judges would listen to his case, and even eventually to South Africa’s constitutional court.

Regarding the firearms charges, from what I've read he could get 5 years on each charge. However, as a first offender, it's more likely he'd receive fines.

Once he is found guilty on the first gun charge and each charge is on separate occasions could the rest of the charges be considered that he was a previous offender?

 

[Cherwell]

I really wish we had had the benefit of Cape Town Crim's observations recently. I hope she will come back. And the other SA poster who was driven away.

 

[AJ_DS]

Especially if he is relying on his stellar defense team for the appeal.

I suspect OP will switch DT for the Appeal… not right away of course… but some time after so as to buy some additional time out of prison.

Generally, criminal attorneys do not specialize in Appeals proceedings.

 

[AJ_DS]

I have to Agree with you on this. For Masipa to grant an appeal based on her own decision to allow the trial to be televised makes no sense. I cannot remember whether or not Roux objected to it at the start of the trial, anyone???

Most comments support her automatically granting an appeal but I feel that is inappropriate. There are hundreds of thousands of convicts sitting in prison right now who are begging their trial judges to grant an appeal, and their applications are constantly denied. OP is not special, he is just an oddity when it comes to SA murderers that's all.

BiB… Agreed

Masipa can do whatever she likes after closing arguments. There is no rule of law that requires her to grant an appeal. I would be shocked if she did.

All of this discussion by attorneys to the contrary of the above is just more added drama for consumer consumption; like watching a CNN legal discussion show. Now if CapeTwnCrim or Trooper were to say otherwise, that would be a different matter, I trust them!

IMO…. After verdict, Roux will ask for leave to Appeal… and Masipa will grant it.

I do not believe that Roux must produce a detailed application to Masipa to request a leave to Appeal… it's somewhat of a formality.

 

[vansleuths]

The PT team has to submit their heads of arguments on July 30th and the DT on Aug 4th. They will then argue on Aug 7th/8th

Why wouldn't they submit their heads of arguments on the same day and does this mean that the DT has access to the PT's heads of arguments from July 30th onward?

 

[AJ_DS]

The PT team has to submit their heads of arguments on July 30th and the DT on Aug 4th. They will then argue on Aug 7th/8th

Why wouldn't they submit their heads of arguments on the same day and does this mean that the DT has access to the PT's heads of arguments from July 30th onward?

So the DT can read the PT's heads of arguments… then the PT reads the DT's heads of arguments

 

[jay-jay]

The PT team has to submit their heads of arguments on July 30th and the DT on Aug 4th. They will then argue on Aug 7th/8th

Why wouldn't they submit their heads of arguments on the same day and does this mean that the DT has access to the PT's heads of arguments from July 30th onward?

My initial reaction to this was that it seemed pretty unfair .. but actually, thinking about it, it may actually make the DT's case look worse as the tailoring will be all the more evident if they've seen the PT's first and need to counter things contained within it.

 

[44ALLAN]

Not a difficult thing to produce a bunch of affidavits of Defence witnesses that state that :

1) they refused to testify because of the media circus around the OP Trial.

2) their testimony and evidence would have been relevant and probative.

I suspect those affidavits are already signed.

If these 'so-called' witnesses had anything of relevance, to help Oscars cause,Roux would have asked the judge to hear their testimony behind closed doors.
The fact that he didn't speaks volumes..................a bit the same as all these witnesses that were going to show tampering at the crime scene and proving OP screams like a woman.
Desperate measures from Roux because he has absolutely nothing else to work with IMO.
M'lady will see right through the feeble attempt.

 

[Viper]

BiB… Agreed



IMO…. After verdict, Roux will ask for leave to Appeal… and Masipa will grant it.

I do not believe that Roux must produce a detailed application to Masipa to request a leave to Appeal… it's somewhat of a formality.

Well if you expect me to believe that it is just a formality and that every convicted murder that makes an application for appeal has it granted by the judge, that just convicted him, you are going to have to give me an extremely credible source for that supposed fact.

 

[K.T]

1. The defense did not want the trial to be televised but the Judge (not Masipa) decided it was in the best interest of the court that the public be allowed to see the justice system in action.

2. The defense is giving the right to go second for the very reason it can listen to the prosecution and be allowed time to prepare their closing argument, part of it may be in rebuttal.

3. Luvmygarden - I wondered that too, if he was convicted of three other gun charges would that make a murder or CH conviction after appeal/retrial become a later a second+ offence...raising the possible sentencing time?

 

[AJ_DS]

If these 'so-called' witnesses had anything of relevance, to help Oscars cause,Roux would have asked the judge to hear their testimony behind closed doors.
The fact that he didn't speaks volumes..................a bit the same as all these witnesses that were going to show tampering at the crime scene and proving OP screams like a woman.
Desperate measures from Roux because he has absolutely nothing else to work with IMO.
M'lady will see right through the feeble attempt.

BiB… Agreed

Naturally it's all a DT strategy… same as requesting the State produce the extension cord… very pathetic.

It is feeble but it WILL by some time for OP out of prison… Masipa is very likely to grant the leave to Appeal.

 

[Viper]

The PT team has to submit their heads of arguments on July 30th and the DT on Aug 4th. They will then argue on Aug 7th/8th

Why wouldn't they submit their heads of arguments on the same day and does this mean that the DT has access to the PT's heads of arguments from July 30th onward?

It seems like the same as in the US. The State gives its closing argument to the judge or jury, then the Defense gives their closing argument, but then the State gets another rebuttal before the jury leaves to determine their verdict. It is the State's burden so they go first and get a short rebuttal later.

It seems like the SA system is mimicking the delay in the Defense"s presentation, that allows them to tailor their closing arguments after hearing, reading in this case, what the State's arguments are.

 

[AJ_DS]

Well if you expect me to believe that it is just a formality and that every convicted murder that makes an application for appeal has it granted by the judge, that just convicted him, you are going to have to give me an extremely credible source for that supposed fact.

An application for leave to Appeal is one thing… not very difficult or expensive.

The Appeals process is another… difficult and expensive… they are not in reach of most convicted accused.

Plus not all convicted felons were out on bail before Trial and have the financial resources to Appeal.

OP is out on bail with relaxed conditions for 18 months now… so when leave for Appeal is granted there is no foreseeable reason to jail him until Appeal is heard.

It's certainly not fair… but it's the best system available to protect the innocent even if the guilty can find ways to benefit from it.

 

[kaos]

Taken from an article posted earlier by somebody (posted by Giles)

http://www.biznews.com/oscar-pistorius-trial/2014/07/pistorius-guilty-can-appeal-win/

Ulrich Roux: An application for leave to appeal will not succeed if the Judge finds that no other court will come to a different ruling when applying the law to the evidence presented before court. Should Oscar Pistorius be convicted I would expect Judge Masipa to grant leave to appeal as she will cover herself. This is a common occurrence in practice.

Judges and Magistrates allow the accused to bring an appeal when they are confident about their ruling as a higher court will of course confirm their finding should they have acquitted themselves well of their task in applying the law to the evidence placed before court.

The Judge has been good thus far. There will be no grounds to take her on review as she has not interfered in the proceedings at all thus far. Nel did well in having Oscar assessed as this would definitely have been a ground for appeal should the application not have been made.

 

[Viper]

An application for leave to Appeal is one thing… not very difficult or expensive.

The Appeals process is another… difficult and expensive… they are not in reach of most convicted accused.

Plus not all convicted felons were out on bail before Trial and have the financial resources to Appeal.

OP is out on bail...

RSBM

It is a common misconception that the appellate process is as expensive as or more expensive than the initial trial, but that is not the case. The trial is the most costly part of this. The appellate process only involves using the facts of the case that are already on record, which are easily copied and pasted in to court filings.

If OP is convicted of all four charges, or a mix of 2-4 of the charges, he is going to prison, he will not be allowed to remain free on bail.

 

[Viper]

Taken from an article posted earlier by somebody (posted by Giles)

http://www.biznews.com/oscar-pistorius-trial/2014/07/pistorius-guilty-can-appeal-win/

I read that yesterday. I see no reason to have any faith in what either one is saying, it is just sideline commentary to feed a hungry audience. End of.

 

[AJ_DS]

It is a common misconception that the appellate process is as expensive as or more expensive than the initial trial, but that is not the case. The trial is the most costly part of this. The appellate process only involves using the facts of the case that are already on record, which are easily copied and pasted in to court filings.

If OP is convicted of all four charges, or a mix of 2-4 of the charges, he is going to prison, he will not be allowed to remain free on bail.

Agreed… but the Appeal process is like the Trial : one can spend as much as they want… OP has shown that money is no object… so the Appeal will surely be expensive, with specialized attorneys and a lengthy and convoluted application with tons of jurisprudence on all aspects.

BiB… How about a friendly wager on that ?… the stakes... a case of delicious beer !

My guess is that OP has a better chance of staying out on bail than Brasil has of defeating Germany…

 

[kaos]

I read that yesterday. I see no reason to have any faith in what either one is saying, it is just sideline commentary to feed a hungry audience. End of.

Nevertheless, they're both attorneys.

[modsnip]

 

[AJ_DS]

Nevertheless, they're both attorneys.

[modsnip]"

BiB… to be fair, we have seen attorneys, former judges, experts of all kinds, give opinions with the express purpose of fueling ratings and lining their pockets.

Whilst those opinions where never lies or unprofessional, they were always tainted by some of the required sensationalism broadcasters crave and pay for.