Trial Discussion Thread #48

[Lux et Veritas]

http://oscarpistorius.com/downloads/jn-divaris-statement.pdf

CONFLICTING statements by Justin Divaris and girlfriend Samantha Greyvenstein.

His statement says OP did not want a boys’ night out but preferred to spend the evening with Reeva.

Her statement says OP did want a boys’ night out but Reeva wanted him to come home and spend the evening with her!

Perhaps, along with being dropped by a sponsor that day, he was extremely annoyed (super pissed off?) that Reeva insisted he come home instead of spending time with his buddies?

Throw in some alcohol (sounds like OP’s Kryptonite) and - BOOM.

 

[AJ_DS]

http://oscarpistorius.com/downloads/jn-divaris-statement.pdf

CONFLICTING statements by Justin Divaris and girlfriend Samantha Greyvenstein.

His statement says OP did not want a boys’ night out but preferred to spend the evening with Reeva.

Her statement says OP did want a boys’ night out but Reeva wanted him to come home and spend the evening with her!

Perhaps, along with being dropped by a sponsor that day, he was extremely annoyed (super pissed off?) that Reeva insisted he come home instead of spending time with his buddies?

Throw in some alcohol (sounds like OP’s Kryptonite) and - BOOM.

BiB… that never happened… in fact Reeva insisted that OP stay in Joburg and do whatever he was planning to do without her.

12:12:05 – Whatsapp
REEVA : " I’ll go through to Jhb at like 3 "

15:23:09 – Whatsapp
REEVA : " Let me know if you’d like to spend time with M or Carl. I’m sure you maybe feel like some family tonight. "

15:46:10 – Whatsapp
REEVA : " Angel I’m going to go home at like 6. Please stay and do whatever it was you were gonna do "

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?237843-Timeline-Thread-***NO-DISCUSSION***&p=10638466#post10638466

 

[Scand]

How crazy am I? LOL

New Theory.

The major crack and bullet hole in the bedroom door have bothered me terribly ever since I heard about them.

Ignoring OP’s explanation for the crack as well, total crack, it’s obvious someone wanted to force their way through the locked bedroom doors. Worse, what’s a bullet hole doing in the BEDROOM door? This was a huge bull African elephant in the courtroom that everyone seemed to blithely ignore. Why? It really is astounding. To my untrained eye, the hole looks exactly like the holes in the toilet door.

What if there were FIVE shots fired?

Keep in mind that ear witnesses reported A LOT of screaming / arguing, closer, farther, louder, softer, indicating this long fight roamed throughout the house, finally escalating back upstairs. In the end, OP may have chased her throughout the house with a weapon.

Remember: Reeva had FOUR wounds.

I want to toss out a new theory - you tell me if it’s possible.

#1 Argument. Reeva flees to bedroom, locks door. Enraged, OP tries to kick door open, fires shot through door, misses. She runs to toilet.

#2 Same as above but OP hits Reeva between fingers. She runs to toilet.

After the shooting, OP had time to manipulate the scene. It’s entirely possible he picked up the bullet casing near the bedroom door and hid / threw it away. He did not want to have to explain a 5th casing, as that would entirely destroy his “intruder” story. He could then easily explain the large crack in the door as trying to force it open in order to carry Reeva downstairs and hope everyone pretty much ignored the bullet hole ... which they did.

This where my theory gets very interesting . . .

If, in fact, he did shoot through the bedroom door and hit Reeva in the hand, there would be blood. (Could this even explain the blood spatter on the duvet and wall, if she flung her hand in pain?) This blood was a HUGE problem for OP! How to explain blood at bedroom door when she was killed in the toilet?! This is why he was forced to carry her out of the toilet all the way downstairs - to cover the pre-existing blood trail from her hand wound. Had he not done that, he could have never explained away the hard evidence of a prior bloody fight at the bedroom door.

Yes, Oscar is lame on multiple counts but he’s not entirely stupid.

Somewhere there is a 5th missing bullet casing.

OK, pick apart my theory, dear sleuthers!

I also wonder why this wasn't explored more in during the trial. It does look to me like a hole from the air gun rather than the 9 mm, but I didn't quite understand from the evidence if the hole was from inside the bedroom or in to the bedroom. Maybe this was "old" damage, but why on earth would anyone shoot through a door inside the house?

Oscar did mention about charging in to the door before he unlatched it. I guess this was to explain the damage to the bedroom door, but it doesn't explain the small bullet hole.

The defence seems to be claiming that the first "shots" were the gun shorts and the second ones (at 3:17) were the cricket bat noises. The prosecution is saying that the gun shots were at 3:17, but I haven't heard them say anything about what they think the earlier "shots" were. Do you think this will come out during arguments?


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[Scand]

The hole in the bedroom door is far too small to be a bullet hole… did you see the bullet holes in the toilet door ?… and the damage caused behind the toilet door to the hard tiled wall ? … the bedroom door hole is much more consistent with an air-pellet fired the from the air rifle.

That bullet would have been recovered by police… after going through the door, where did that bullet go ??… IIRC the sunglass display case is right behind that door and would have seriously been damaged from multiple fragments of the expanded and/or shattered Black Talon bullet.

No other bullet empty casing was found.

No other bullet was missing from the magazine clip.

I remember seeing a picture of the gun in the bathroom after it had been made safe with the magazine on the bathroom mat. Did they confirm how many bullets were left in the magazine then? I have been looking and looking for that clip on YouTube, but I haven't been able to find it again. I am super curious to know if this also showed that only 4 bullets were fired that night. Does anyone remember when/if this was mentioned in court?


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[Mr Fossil]

BiB… that never happened… in fact Reeva insisted that OP stay in Joburg and do whatever he was planning to do without her.

12:12:05 – Whatsapp
REEVA : " I’ll go through to Jhb at like 3 "

15:23:09 – Whatsapp
REEVA : " Let me know if you’d like to spend time with M or Carl. I’m sure you maybe feel like some family tonight. "

15:46:10 – Whatsapp
REEVA : " Angel I’m going to go home at like 6. Please stay and do whatever it was you were gonna do "

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?237843-Timeline-Thread-***NO-DISCUSSION***&p=10638466#post10638466

BIB I agree with this. Reading the depositions, whilst Justin Divaris and Samantha Greyvenstein report that Reeva wanted OP to come home, they would have only heard this from OP after he'd had the conversation with Reeva. The WhatsApp messages suggest otherwise. My guess is he didn't want to stay and used Reeva as the excuse. He would have told Reeva what Justin wanted him to do, then said if she'd rather he came home .... and then reported his version of her answer to Justin and Samantha. The WhatsApp messages are first person, factual and tell a different story.

 

[Giles]

I remember seeing a picture of the gun in the bathroom after it had been made safe with the magazine on the bathroom mat. Did they confirm how many bullets were left in the magazine then? I have been looking and looking for that clip on YouTube, but I haven't been able to find it again. I am super curious to know if this also showed that only 4 bullets were fired that night. Does anyone remember when/if this was mentioned in court?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't recall any mention of how many bullets were left in the magazine, but Gerrie Nel confirmed that there were only 4 shots fired that evening. This arose in an objection during cross examination of Dr Stipp.

It's likely that Nel will argue that the cricket bat was used first (we'll find out very soon). He has made a point of extracting from witnesses that there is no way of knowing the order of cricket bat strikes and gunshots, only that the door panel was removed after the gunshots.

 

[Greater Than]

I believe there were five casings found - four in the bathroom and one in the passageway.

 

[808]

There is no evidence to suggest that the "$h!tty news" OP received that day was a sponsor dropping him.

However if it was that, the poor sportsmanship OP displayed at the 2012 Paralympics when he accused the Brazilian winner of the 200-meter event of cheating surely made some sponsors cringe and possibly prompted one of them to drop him.

There is no evidence to suggest that OP was drunk… furthermore, he was in period of training when alcohol consumption is prohibited by the training regimen.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/crime/osca...us-tested-steroids-after-drugs-found-his-home

This article talks about evidence of heavy drinking found as well as a herbal testosterone analog they call steroids.
The evidence that he got *****ty news at lunch was in the whatsapp messages that day between him and Reeva.
She consoles him and says don't worry about your financial future (babalouie or something). I am speculating that the only thing he could have had go wrong is that one of his sponsors dropped him given that's his only source of income.
Now the reason for this could have very well been the dummy spit after the olympics but more likely the fight at the Sandton nightclub where he copped a few stitches to the back of his head. He then got the Hawks (cops) to talk to Mark (I'm gonna break yer legs) Batchelor out of any further feuding with OP.
This is in article

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...ied-about-reputation-after-altercations-reeva

"The athlete was so obsessed with maintaining his squeaky clean public image and lucrative sponsorship deals that he repeatedly lied to try to cover up an assault during December 2012, for which he had to receive medical attention."

"And in court this week the athlete finally had to admit that he was assaulted at a function in December 2012 and had to receive stitches to the back of his head. Information last year suggested the assault had happened at a club in Sandton."

The stuff about the drinking is speculation / media hype but about the bad news at the meeting ... it's in the whatsapp records.
I am only speculating about a dropped sponsor but given the heat around him press wise it's entirely possible. And there was bad news that day I will try to find the whatsapp messages. Other threads talk about this as well.
Man on fire breaks his training regime and has a real bad day with a few drinks... not impossible.:moo:

 

[AJ_DS]

I believe there were five casings found - four in the bathroom and one in the passageway.

This is incorrect… 4 casings were found : 3 in bathroom + 1 in passageway… respectfully.

 

[AJ_DS]

http://www.theweek.co.uk/crime/osca...us-tested-steroids-after-drugs-found-his-home

This article talks about evidence of heavy drinking found as well as a herbal testosterone analog they call steroids.
The evidence that he got *****ty news at lunch was in the whatsapp messages that day between him and Reeva.
She consoles him and says don't worry about your financial future (babalouie or something). I am speculating that the only thing he could have had go wrong is that one of his sponsors dropped him given that's his only source of income.
Now the reason for this could have very well been the dummy spit after the olympics but more likely the fight at the Sandton nightclub where he copped a few stitches to the back of his head. He then got the Hawks (cops) to talk to Mark (I'm gonna break yer legs) Batchelor out of any further feuding with OP.
This is in article

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...ied-about-reputation-after-altercations-reeva

"The athlete was so obsessed with maintaining his squeaky clean public image and lucrative sponsorship deals that he repeatedly lied to try to cover up an assault during December 2012, for which he had to receive medical attention."

"And in court this week the athlete finally had to admit that he was assaulted at a function in December 2012 and had to receive stitches to the back of his head. Information last year suggested the assault had happened at a club in Sandton."

The stuff about the drinking is speculation / media hype but about the bad news at the meeting ... it's in the whatsapp records.
I am only speculating about a dropped sponsor but given the heat around him press wise it's entirely possible. And there was bad news that day I will try to find the whatsapp messages. Other threads talk about this as well.
Man on fire breaks his training regime and has a real bad day with a few drinks... not impossible.:moo:

Agreed.

The bad financial news could also be many other things than a sponsor dropping OP… bad investments, investment opportunity failed, mortgage denied on the house he was planning to buy, etc… even a combination of things such as bad investments lead to diminished earnings which leads to not being able to secure mortgage to buy the house in Joburg.

I suspect that if the bad financial news was a sponsor dropping OP, we would have heard details about it : which sponsor, why, etc… especially since it was the very next day that OP killed Reeva.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Wishful thinking on your part, Lux !!! lol

Seriously, my belief is that, even if Judge and her Assessors should reach a verdict after a couple of days, they will delay announcing it... due to the importance of their decision, they'll make sure there's no hint of their not having given enough thought to the verdict. Grrh... know I'm not expressing this well, but hope everybody will know what I'm trying to say.

I know, huh, Fox? LOL

No, you're absolutely right. Substance is the core but appearance must also be heavily weighed. You do bring up a very excellent point of them waiting a "proper" amount of time, should their decision not take all that long. (Although juries have been known to come back in an hour or two. lol)

IMHO, I think Masipa and her assessors have been making up their minds all along - and I think OP's testimony quickly catapulted their thoughts. LOL

 

[AJ_DS]

I know, huh, Fox? LOL

No, you're absolutely right. Substance is the core but appearance must also be heavily weighed. You do bring up a very excellent point of them waiting a "proper" amount of time, should their decision not take all that long. (Although juries have been known to come back in an hour or two. lol)

IMHO, I think Masipa and her assessors have been making up their minds all along - and I think OP's testimony quickly catapulted their thoughts. LOL

Yes, I agree… but the arduous part is not forming an opinion on OP's guilt or innocence… it's writing a comprehensive and detailed judgement that addresses ALL the points submitted by the State and by the Defence in their heads of argument.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

LOL… Heck, if it were up to me, M'Lady would render a GUILTY of MURDER verdict immediately after prosecution's arguments… why bother with the Defence's arguments ??… it will be more of the same nonsensical drivel we have already seen and heard at Trial in an desperate attempt at spawning some shred of doubt in Masipa's mind.

Your scenario is highly tempting LOL - but alas, I staunchly favor strictly fair trials (Masipa has been an impeccable champion on this count) .... it does make the final verdict even sweeter.

 

[AJ_DS]

Your scenario is highly tempting LOL - but alas, I staunchly favor strictly fair trials (Masipa has been an impeccable champion on this count) .... it does make the final verdict even sweeter.

Plus the head of arguments of the Defence will surely be entertaining and give fodder to our discussions.

 

[808]

Agreed.

I suspect that if the bad financial news was a sponsor dropping OP, we would have heard details about it : which sponsor, why, etc… especially since it was the very next day that OP killed Reeva.

"Part man, part god and unchained by the conventional codes of seduction, he is defined by his interior strength and his desire to conquer… Oscar Pistorius possesses the masculine values which Thierry Mugler holds so dear." Ooops someone in marketing just got fired :thinking:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/20/oscar-pistorius-dropped-sponsors

This article speaks of his sponsorship avalanche and how billboards were taken down once Reeva was confirmed dead.

- Olympics July August 2012 Dummy spit about blade length.

On September 30, 2012 he allegedly shot through the open sunroof of a car with his 9mm pistol while driving with friends in Modderfontein.

Then in a fight in Sandton December 2012)with someone who gave him a cut worth stitches.

OP shot fired from the Glock pistol at Tashas in January 2013.

This is all public record ....imagine what we haven't heard?

I think whether he killed Reeva the very next month or not he was starting to become a sponsorship liability.:moo:

 

[AJ_DS]

"Part man, part god and unchained by the conventional codes of seduction, he is defined by his interior strength and his desire to conquer… Oscar Pistorius possesses the masculine values which Thierry Mugler holds so dear." Ooops someone in marketing just got fired :thinking:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/20/oscar-pistorius-dropped-sponsors

This article speaks of his sponsorship avalanche and how billboards were taken down once Reeva was confirmed dead.

- Olympics July August 2012 Dummy spit about blade length.

On September 30, 2012 he allegedly shot through the open sunroof of a car with his 9mm pistol while driving with friends in Modderfontein.

Then in a fight in Sandton December 2012)with someone who gave him a cut worth stitches.

OP shot fired from the Glock pistol at Tashas in January 2013.

This is all public record ....imagine what we haven't heard?

I think whether he killed Reeva the very next month or not he was starting to become a sponsorship liability.:moo:

Indeed.

 

[kittychi]

I was just digging around Pistorius's web site and came across several witness statements and Heads of Argument for the Defence for the bail hearing.

http://oscarpistorius.com/downloads/jn-divaris-statement.pdf

http://oscarpistorius.com/downloads/Oscar-Pistorius-Heads-of-Argument.pdf

Nothing terribly new but interesting reading nonetheless while we wait for Thursday.

Whoa! WilliamMunter, how on earth did you find those documents on OP's site? I don't see any way to get to that if you just go to his web site.

Is there a sleuthing technique that you can share?

Interesting to read Divaris' statement, I had not seen that before.

Thank you!

 

[kittychi]

It's 3:30 am for my lake too !!

For these much anticipated Closing Arguments, maybe we should be reserving our seats in advance!!

Yup, 3:30 am for me too. I hope Zwiebel will have plenty of breakfast biscuits!

:coffeeup:

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Reading all these Statements by Justin Divaris, Graham Edward Binge, Samantha Greyvenstein and Alexandros Pilakoutas surely paints a picture that all was sunshine and roses between Oscar and Reeva.

However . . .

The Private is sometimes very different than the Public (even hidden from family and close friends).

http://oscarpistorius.com/downloads/jn-divaris-statement.pdf

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Yes, I agree… but the arduous part is not forming an opinion on OP's guilt or innocence… it's writing a comprehensive and detailed judgement that addresses ALL the points submitted by the State and by the Defence in their heads of argument.

I certainly don't envy Masipa's gargantuan task!

My Lady’s explanation for her verdict may be as fascinating or even more than the actual trial. This is one aspect of SA law I very much like. I hope she really goes into great detail about the crucial and yes, the mysterious, unanswered issues. I’m fully prepared to watch her (in-depth?) explanation for as long as she wants to elaborate - a day, two, a week, I’m good!