Trial Discussion Thread #48

[Marfa Lights]

Originally posted by Liesbeth

http://newyorkcriminaldefenseblawg.com/2014/04/oscar-pistorius-defense-analyzed-by-a-criminal-defense-attorney-april-8-2014/[/url]

Thanks for posting the link to this article, Liesbeth. Great clarification of how the murder charges will need to be considered-- and it refers to SA law even though it is a NY blog. Highly recommended!

 

[K.T]

'How a pitbull prosecutor outlawyered Pistorius' defense' - Lisa Bloom

"Here, the top four ways the prosecution has outlawyered the defense in the closely watched, South African courtroom.

1. Nel’s scorching cross-examination eviscerated Pistorius’ story
2. Mental illness you say? Let’s have that tested
3. Good old-fashioned circumstantial evidence
4. Pistorius’ history of playing with guns

The verdict?
In my opinion, Pistorius is most likely to be convicted of murder given the strong proof the prosecution established."

nakedlaw.avvo.com/crime/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial.html#ixzz37S38MZR5

Sorry if this was already posted!

 

[Marfa Lights]

Here is another link by the same defense attorney in Liesbeth's post above-- this one is from 2013 but also worth a read. He makes the important distinction that in the US it is lawful in most states to use deadly force against an intruder merely to prevent a burglary of your home; in South Africa, however, the use of deadly force against an intruder is only lawful to protect oneself or others from imminent and potentially damaging bodily harm.

http://newyorkcriminaldefenseblawg.com/2013/03/pistorius-case-analyzed-by-a-defense-attorney/

 

[jillondon]

BIB: Sorry another topic - AJ, thanks for the timeline post on the last thread about the GPS/messages of Pistorius and Steenkamp movements on Feb 13th. It was very informative.

Can you, or anyone, help me understand how the 10th birthday party of Firzt fitted into his movements? Such a strange comment by Valerie Berkow-Kaye...and I couldn't find the tweet she reportedly sent.

Do you think Pistorius is lying to Steenkamp or are Divarus etc. affidavits incorrect. So, from his testimony, he had a business meeting with his financial advisers, late lunch with Divarus/Ryan and an afternoon party?

As far as I understand it, Ryan is the estate agent who was negotiating OP's house purchase in Johannesburg. I assume he worked for Firzt who held the 10th birthday party on the afternoon of 13 February.

I'm afraid I can't find the references now but I seem to recollect that Reeva sent a message to OP just after 1 p.m. commiserating with him for the "******" thing that had happened. So his important meeting must have ended at 1 p.m. We also know that he went to the birthday party in the afternoon as he sent a Whatsapp message to Reeva at 3.21 p.m. telling her that he was just finishing up with Ryan but obviously not mentioning that he was at a party (champagne and canapes?). So he must have had the late lunch with Divaris from 3.30 p.m. before going home at 6 p.m.

The party was in the afternoon (not evening) as Valerie Berkow-Kaye tweeted that he was charming and smiley and definitely not planning a murder on the Wednesday afternoon.

Please don't hesitate to put me right if this is incorrect.

 

[AJ_DS]

Hope this helps … feel free to ask more questions if I was not clear enough… english not my first language and I suck at typing !!

HAAAAA! English is my first language so I have NO excuses! BY the way, your Eglish is actually EXCELLENT and so is your typing!!

1. Will Masipa and (those other two people up there) get all sorts of photos and whatsapp messages that may never have been mentioned / shown in court to us? Like, Nel reads out 10 but they get all 7,000 that exist?

2. Do the SA police videotape crime scenes or only take photos?

3. Nel was frustrated about where OP was saying he put down the two fans and finally told him to show the exact spot(s) with the pointer. Wouldn't that be the FIRST thing I'd want to get the accused to do?

LOL… Thanks… but I can't take all the credit for the typing : Thank God for the miracle of auto-correct !

1. Masipa and the assessors have access to all of the material put into evidence and the typed Court record.

2. I believe only photos… because they are better quality than video and much easier to print, show, refer to, etc...

3. Sorry I'm not understanding your question

 

[Val1]

There is one other possibility but we shall never know if it applies to him - there are now contact lenses that can be worn overnight.

Do we know for a fact that he even needs prescription glasses? I did some searching and all I found were pics of him wearing sunglasses from one of his now ex sponsors and only one pic before the court case where he's wearing a pair of what appear to be regular glasses, worn for his apology after being a poor loser... , although they could have been one of those newer sunglasses that change hue depending on the light. If there's no proof he actually needs a prescription, I'm betting he's just wearing reading glasses to make it easier to see his texts and/or notes while he sits in court all day(although I've seen at least one court pic where he appears to be wearing them quite high on his nose and looking under them at whatever it was) and that it makes him look more vulnerable(aka nerdish) certainly doesn't hurt since that's basically his defense...

 

[AJ_DS]

BBM - THANK YOU! This is exactly why the proper order in which to evaluate the state's case versus the defense's case has had me so conflicted - because each side has its own burden of proof.

I personally find it easier in my mind to prove OP's guilt by disproving his version and his defense. For example, OP claimed he thought an attack was imminent when he heard wood movement because he associated that wood-moving sound with the door opening, but that is disproved by the forensic evidence that Reeva was standing in front of and close to the door. She was nowhere near the magazine rack to bump it and make a wood-moving sound. We could easily do this with almost every element of his version. So in my view, when his version and defense are disproven, the state's case is simultaneously and automatically proven. Add in the eye witnesses' evidence that the bathroom light was on before the gunshots, and the ear witnesses' evidence that there was an argument and that Reeva was heard screaming before and during the gunshots, not only does this further prove his guilt, but it's also possible proof of premeditation.

I still may be completely backwards with how I'm looking at this but IMO, any way you slice it, OP is guilty.

I totally agree that disproving OP's PPD case brick by brick is MUCH easier than constructing the State's case for murder and evaluating if it achieves the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

However, I'm not sure if that methodology is legally possible.

I agree that logically if one disproves PPD than what remains is murder

The legal conundrum I have is the following :

Is disproving PPD beyond a reasonable doubt equivalent to proving murder beyond a reasonable doubt ?

Is disproving the accused innocence equivalent to proving the accused guilt beyond a reasonable doubt ?

 

[AJ_DS]

BIB: Sorry another topic - AJ, thanks for the timeline post on the last thread about the GPS/messages of Pistorius and Steenkamp movements on Feb 13th. It was very informative.

Can you, or anyone, help me understand how the 10th birthday party of Firzt fitted into his movements? Such a strange comment by Valerie Berkow-Kaye...and I couldn't find the tweet she reportedly sent.

Do you think Pistorius is lying to Steenkamp or are Divarus etc. affidavits incorrect. So, from his testimony, he had a business meeting with his financial advisers, late lunch with Divarus/Ryan and an afternoon party?

Thanks KT !

I have no info on the "10th birthday party of Firzt"… do you know where this party was held ?

Who is Fritz ?... the message says he was OP's estate agent… but he can't be 10 years old !?!

Reeva's messages and phone evidence contradicts the affidavit of Divaris and his girlfriend Sam… it also contradicts OP's bail affidavit.

Did OP testify to going to that afternoon party for Fritz before he went home ?… I can't recall that he did… nor that it was mentioned in the bail affidavit, nor the plea explanation.

 

[liesbeth]

I think Sean Rens's evidence shot that down, if you'll pardon the expression.

Indeed.

He passed the firearm tests so he knew the law. And in the Watermelon video we can see that he is a good shot and very comfortable with guns. The grouping of the shots on the door shows that he had time, and the presence of mind, to bring the gun under control and fire not just one, but four shots. He also knew that Reeva was with him in the house that night. He never saw her or checked where she was when he heard the noise, so he had no reason to exclude the possibility that she had made the noise in the toilet.

Given the facts I agree with you. We can dismiss the possibility that Pistorius THOUGHT he was entitled to kill in private defence as unreasonable.

 

[AJ_DS]

As far as I understand it, Ryan is the estate agent who was negotiating OP's house purchase in Johannesburg. I assume he worked for Firzt who held the 10th birthday party on the afternoon of 13 February.

I'm afraid I can't find the references now but I seem to recollect that Reeva sent a message to OP just after 1 p.m. commiserating with him for the "******" thing that had happened. So his important meeting must have ended at 1 p.m. We also know that he went to the birthday party in the afternoon as he sent a Whatsapp message to Reeva at 3.21 p.m. telling her that he was just finishing up with Ryan but obviously not mentioning that he was at a party (champagne and canapes?). So he must have had the late lunch with Divaris from 3.30 p.m. before going home at 6 p.m.

The party was in the afternoon (not evening) as Valerie Berkow-Kaye tweeted that he was charming and smiley and definitely not planning a murder on the Wednesday afternoon.

Please don't hesitate to put me right if this is incorrect.

- How do we know Ryan is the estate agent ?

- Who is Fritz ?

- Who was turning 10 years old ?

- Who throws a birthday party on a weekday in the afternoon ?

- If OP ate a late lunch after 15:30 with Divaris why was he eating again at 19:00 with Reeva ?


These questions are not addressed solely to you, jillondon, but are asked at large.

 

[AJ_DS]

I can't answer how Masipa and the assessors will will weigh out the evidence. I don't even know which side's case she'll consider first. :floorlaugh:

As for watching videos of the live stream, I don't know for sure but I'm inclined to say no. I believe they can only view the exhibits that were entered into evidence, the record, and the notes they took during the witness' testimonies. I could be wrong though.

BiB… I would think you are correct… media recordings of the proceedings are off-limits

 

[Val1]

- How do we know Ryan is the estate agent ?

- Who is Fritz ?

- Who was turning 10 years old ?

- Who throws a birthday party on a weekday in the afternoon ?

- If OP ate a late lunch after 15:30 with Divaris why was he eating again at 19:00 with Reeva ?


These questions are not addressed solely to you, jillondon, but are asked at large.

1. I don't know if that was his agent's name, could it be a street name?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10946964/The-luxury-home-where-Oscar-Pistorius-planned-a-life-with-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

Ricardo said he had sold the house recently, for a similar price, through estate agent Firzt. He declined to comment further.

2. Firzt is the name of the business.

On the afternoon of February 13, just hours before the shooting, Pistorius attended the 10th birthday party of Firzt, the estate agent he was buying the house from.

https://www.facebook.com/firztrealtycompany

3/4. It was the 10th birthday/anniversary of the business. No pics of OP there that day though, unless they were scrubbed.

5. Dontcha know... OP can't eat normal food when he's in training...

 

[jay-jay]

- How do we know Ryan is the estate agent ?

- Who is Fritz ?

- Who was turning 10 years old ?

- Who throws a birthday party on a weekday in the afternoon ?

- If OP ate a late lunch after 15:30 with Divaris why was he eating again at 19:00 with Reeva ?


These questions are not addressed solely to you, jillondon, but are asked at large.

'Firtz' .. real estate agents in J'burg http://www.firztonline.co.za/ .. it was the 10th birthday of the company, I presume ..

 

[jay-jay]

No idea what this 'Ryan's' surname is, but this one was working for Firzt Reality Company in 2013 http://za.linkedin.com/pub/ryan-chaitowitz/73/131/705

 

[Cherwell]

- How do we know Ryan is the estate agent ?

- Who is Fritz ?

- Who was turning 10 years old ?

- Who throws a birthday party on a weekday in the afternoon ?

- If OP ate a late lunch after 15:30 with Divaris why was he eating again at 19:00 with Reeva ?


These questions are not addressed solely to you, jillondon, but are asked at large.

I don't have a source, but I construed the following from Jill's post.

Firzt (not "Fritz") is the name of the estate agency OP was using.
It was the company's tenth anniversary, not a person's birthday.
The occasion was celebrated with an afternoon office party to which clients were invited. (Probably champagne and canapés, as someone suggested earlier.)

I don't know anything about the lunch with Divaris.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Do we know for a fact that he even needs prescription glasses? I did some searching and all I found were pics of him wearing sunglasses from one of his now ex sponsors and only one pic before the court case where he's wearing a pair of what appear to be regular glasses, worn for his apology after being a poor loser... , although they could have been one of those newer sunglasses that change hue depending on the light. If there's no proof he actually needs a prescription, I'm betting he's just wearing reading glasses to make it easier to see his texts and/or notes while he sits in court all day(although I've seen at least one court pic where he appears to be wearing them quite high on his nose and looking under them at whatever it was) and that it makes him look more vulnerable(aka nerdish) certainly doesn't hurt since that's basically his defense...

I think he probably does wear glasses. I Googled Pistorius + glasses and clicked on images and got quite a few dating back to the Olympics and before. Brother Carl also wears specs which may suggest a family vision weakness. There is also a photo of a girl sitting next to his sister wearing specs who has a striking family resemblance (downward drooping mouth – somewhat like a fish – and a very sharp nose).

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=o...LG0QW1qoGICw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1162&bih=573

I noticed when he was in court (before he took to wearing specs) that he was instilling drops into his eyes which I thought was a bit bizarre because most people would not have done this in public. He was lying on the bench where he usually sits.




http://news.yahoo.com/pistorius-photographed-bloodied-prosthetics-093322663--spt.html


He is known to be on a lot of anxiolytics and although I haven’t checked on the specific medicines that have been quoted during the trial, a lot of them do cause dry eyes. I have a feeling that he may normally wear lenses and during the trial has had to resort to spectacles due to a dry eye problem but it is only guesswork on my part.

 

[liesbeth]

[I've copied/pasted below Val's post#892 from Pg. 36 of last thread] :

Yes he is OP's contractor friend...
http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

I note he's calling the thunderclaps gunshots in this article...
http://www.capitalbay.com/mobile/mob...th-adored.html

Perhaps that's what OP was thanking him for in this:
https://twitter.com/MediaSlut/status...290560/photo/1
######################################################################

Thanks, Val, I so love the way you answer a Q!! Thanks @Liesbeth for responding so quickly w/the needed name of OP's "buddy." As soon as I opened the capitalbay site, I reconized the photo of OP, RS, and his monkey and the quote "Pistorius' best friend Christo Menelaou, who took the picture." Oddly enough, I had recently come across this puzzling notation in my older case notes: "Christo Menelaou - OP's best friend." I scratched through the latter part and put Q-mark next to name.

It's been a long time since I've heard anything about the monkey. I thought I read that OP got rid of it and assumed that took place prior to RS's death. However, since the photo was taken just four days before her death, I must be wrong.

So where was the monkey that fatal night? Perhaps sleeping at Frank's where he saw no evil, heard no evil, and spoke no evil!?!?

The capitalbay and twitter links quoted above both say that the pages have been removed. I wonder why? Curious. Can anyone perhaps tell me what was on those pages? Thanks.

Edit: I see someone has already mentioned this. I'm reading the thread from where I left off yesterday.

 

[jay-jay]

I noticed when he was in court (before he took to wearing specs) that he was instilling drops into his eyes which I thought was a bit bizarre because most people would not have done this in public. He was lying on the bench where he usually sits.

View attachment 55117

:hilarious: .. what a drama queen, eh .. I can quite easily and discreetely put drops in my eyes sitting up.

 

[Interested Bystander]

:hilarious: .. what a drama queen, eh .. I can quite easily and discreetely put drops in my eyes sitting up.

I agree. It seems nothing less than attention seeking.

 

[AJ_DS]

1. I don't know if that was his agent's name, could it be a street name?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10946964/The-luxury-home-where-Oscar-Pistorius-planned-a-life-with-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

2. Firzt is the name of the business.


https://www.facebook.com/firztrealtycompany

3/4. It was the 10th birthday/anniversary of the business. No pics of OP there that day though, unless they were scrubbed.

5. Dontcha know... OP can't eat normal food when he's in training...

'Firtz' .. real estate agents in J'burg http://www.firztonline.co.za/ .. it was the 10th birthday of the company, I presume ..

Thanks !!

So 'Fritz' is the name of a person who is an estate agent AND the nickname of his business.

It wasn't a birthday party but the 10th anniversary party of the business

- Do we know if the party was held in the Fritz offices or somewhere else ?

If we can locate Divaris's office and the location of that party, we could possibly establish a better timeline