Trial Discussion Thread #48

[Lux et Veritas]

BIB - How do you know those neighbors are black? And what does their race have to do with anything? They live in Silverwoods Estate. I would assume they are well-to-do, respectable people.

I have NO doubt that these neighbors are well-to-do, very respectable people. I never even remotely implied otherwise. I am and have always been vehemently ANTI-racist, whatever the flavor.

Here’s the point I was trying to make.

Race, obviously, has nothing to do with the actual murder. Indirectly, it may have everything to do with OP trying every avenue to keep himself out of prison, including intimidation of people he may well consider his “inferiors” (that OP has an out-sized ego, history of aggression, entitlement mentality and comes from a rich, white Afrikaans background cannot be disputed).

Indicted for murder, OP has very publicly thrown literally everyone except God under the bus - including confronting Gina Myers in open court.

What do you think he does in PRIVATE? Much worse.

The man is a proven liar. He will literally say and do anything to avoid prison. I have no doubt he would not hesitate to use ANY superior advantage to save his skin, including pulling rank of whatever unsavory, nasty stripe - including outright threats.

Oscar’s history proves he’s extremely image conscious - nothing must mar his “golden boy” persona; being “PC” is critical to his public image. His history also proves he’s not afraid of wielding his vastly superior wealth and status to get what he wants (how many poor athletes would have the wealth or resources to sue the IAAF to demand participation in the Olympics?)

Part of his privileged “status” is that he’s white. While that particular status may today not be as pronounced as in SA's past, it's still there. Does Oscar use any and every privilege to his advantage, should the dire need arise? Look to his history. (For the record, let's not pretend - does anyone really think racism simply disappeared from SA in 1994? Like the US, unfortunately, it’s still alive and well, though now generally more subtle and veiled.)

One critical question is central to my argument:

What black person has ever privately or publicly challenged OP about any issue in his entire life (other than the trial)? NONE. (Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.) Why? This is the crucial distinction I was trying to make: I believe racial intimidation/fear still exists in SA, however subtle, however unspoken.

Oscar’s past proves he’s not afraid to use fear, intimidation, personal confrontation and money to get what he wants.

That the three people/neighbors closest to OP that night (potentially the most damaging) are silent or essentially neutral in defenses’s favor (and who also happen to be black) - really stood out for me. (We know that Frank is black and I simply deduced that Mr. and Ms. Nhlengethwa are almost certainly black, given the surname and the fact that Ms. Nhlengethwa testified in Setswana/Tshwana. Nothing sinister here. Again, someone please correct me if I’m wrong on facts.)

I was trying to make an important point about ruthless OP’s self-entitled, privileged ego, his hyper-aggressive strategy to avoid prison (he’ll bulldoze anyone in his way, by whatever means necessary - especially those he sees “beneath” him, those deemed “weaker” by whatever social standard) and apparently I failed terribly. For that I apologize. I should have elaborated on my theory more concisely.

The issue clearly is not “black” neighbors or “white” neighbors. It is murder and justice. The core issue is squarely at Oscar’s doorstep; he is a ruthless, calculating man who WILL use literally every “superior” weapon at his disposal to save himself, fair or foul - including his family’s vast wealth, status and (corporate/political) influence.

 

[foxbluff]

Yes, R4.5m converts to 250, 000 British pounds.

Thanks for clarifying that jay-jay! Like GreaterThan, for some reason I totally overlooked the British pound symbol you had used in your post.

 

[Val1]

BIB - He said he laid her head on a towel in the bathroom after he pulled her out of the toilet.

So if one of his phones and RS's(broken into two pieces) were at least partially hidden under the bloody towel/s and mat, with the gun on top of the mat, just when did he retrieve his phones ... before or after he claims he saw who he'd shot in the toilet room? Depending on the answer, when did he find the time to cry over her, "battle" to get her out, let her bleed out on the bath room floor while making the calls we know about, then manage to leverage her and himself up off the floor(without assistance and apparently very little blood to walls/sink/tub, indicating no assistance required) to make his grand descent down the stairs while stopping at the top landing long enough to be sure he wouldn't set off his alarm system where that last arterial spurt is said to have happened?

To me it seems like he was incredibly lucky with the little amount of blood. A few pools, a bit of trail, a couple of smudges and a few spurts and whatever he'd managed to soak up with the towels and his clothes(of which we really didn't hear much, where's the top that he had been reported as wearing when he carried RS down the stairs, how about the gunpowder, blood and tissue evidence on his "pants", top and prosthetics?) Yes he washed himself off, but blood trace and gunpowder residue doesn't wash away that easily and certainly not from clothing. Should he win an appeal, shouldn't all of that been entered as evidence too, or was it?

The closer we get to a possible conviction, the more I feel we've been kept in the dark.

 

[liesbeth]

http://www.littlegatepublishing.com/2014/03/oscarpistorius/

@ Lux et Veritas: Yes indeed. The main issue is violence.

...Oscar Pistorious and Reeva Steemkamp, in my mind, have become the posters for the real issue affecting Africa and this is no longer racism. There are as many blacks, Indians, coloureds and whites who suffer together under fear for their homes and their lives that racism is now a minor issue in comparison. The real issue is a disregard and lack of value for human life.

 

[Val1]

I get what you are saying… but
<respectfully snipped>

The 0020 phone left OP's house on that morning, an expensive watch, Reeva's purse, … and who knows what else… however, none of it was deemed significant enough to make a big deal out of it in OP's Trial.

bbm - I disagree, I specifically recall the judge making a comment that sounded very much to me like exasperation when Nel tried to make a reference to the missing phone(I think the handbag may have been part of the conversation as well) at the beginning(iirc) of one of the sessions. I would say it has come up at least a few times, although obviously in chambers since we weren't granted leave to watch/listen to it, and I would say that Nel was probably not satisfied with whatever the outcome of it had been and the judge was once again erring on the side of caution. I just hope that caution doesn't prejudice the PT's case and make an acquittal possible.

Certainly there was nothing about that whole situation that needed to be kept private and it is on the record that both the cell phone and handbag were removed from the crime scene by those in the DT's camp, just for some reason Nel was unable to pursue either with witnesses.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

So if one of his phones and RS's(broken into two pieces) were at least partially hidden under the bloody towel/s and mat, with the gun on top of the mat, just when did he retrieve his phones ... before or after he claims he saw who he'd shot in the toilet room? Depending on the answer, when did he find the time to cry over her, "battle" to get her out, let her bleed out on the bath room floor while making the calls we know about, then manage to leverage her and himself up off the floor(without assistance and apparently very little blood to walls/sink/tub, indicating no assistance required) to make his grand descent down the stairs while stopping at the top landing long enough to be sure he wouldn't set off his alarm system where that last arterial spurt is said to have happened?

To me it seems like he was incredibly lucky with the little amount of blood. A few pools, a bit of trail, a couple of smudges and a few spurts and whatever he'd managed to soak up with the towels and his clothes(of which we really didn't hear much, where's the top that he had been reported as wearing when he carried RS down the stairs, how about the gunpowder, blood and tissue evidence on his "pants", top and prosthetics?) Yes he washed himself off, but blood trace and gunpowder residue doesn't wash away that easily and certainly not from clothing. Should he win an appeal, shouldn't all of that been entered as evidence too, or was it?

The closer we get to a possible conviction, the more I feel we've been kept in the dark.

Excellent point about the amount of blood, Val1. I also noticed that. Head wounds, especially, are notorious for profuse bleeding.

Considering the massive damage that Black Talons inflict and the relatively small aggregate amount of blood throughout the house, I'd say Reeva died almost instantly (a "couple of breaths" according to Saayman) - hence so little actual bleeding. (Honestly, I'm not even sure the arterial spurts were actual arterial spurts. Looking at crime scene blood spatter photos/demos, the "spurts" at OP crime scene looked nothing like the dramatic ones I've seen. They really are unmistakable. But, hey, I'm just an armchair sleuth. lol)

If she was still alive and breathing at the bottom of the stairs (based on Saayman's testimony, I'd say that scenario is ultra-slim to ZERO), I'd expect a lot MORE arterial spurts...especially in light of THREE horrific gunshot wounds.)

This is one more nail in OP's coffin - he knew she was already dead when he broke open the toilet door (OR waited to call for help to insure she was dead) and she did NOT "die in his arms".

 

[AJ_DS]

bbm - I disagree, I specifically recall the judge making a comment that sounded very much to me like exasperation when Nel tried to make a reference to the missing phone(I think the handbag may have been part of the conversation as well) at the beginning(iirc) of one of the sessions. I would say it has come up at least a few times, although obviously in chambers since we weren't granted leave to watch/listen to it, and I would say that Nel was probably not satisfied with whatever the outcome of it had been and the judge was once again erring on the side of caution. I just hope that caution doesn't prejudice the PT's case and make an acquittal possible.

Certainly there was nothing about that whole situation that needed to be kept private and it is on the record that both the cell phone and handbag were removed from the crime scene by those in the DT's camp, just for some reason Nel was unable to pursue either with witnesses.

With respect, I believe you are seriously misremembering&#8230;

The missing phone was only mentioned twice by Moller :

1- Moller explained how he determined the existence of a 2nd iPhone (24 March Session 3)

2- Moller explained how he obtained the missing iPhone on 26 February (25 March Session 1)

These were done almost in passing with no insistence on any details&#8230; and Nel did not pursue that avenue at all&#8230; not with Moller or OP

However I happily stand to be corrected with a reference

 

[Greater Than]

Nope, sorry…

Having truly nothing to hide and telling the Truth to police investigators does NOT guarantee you that the State will not charge you and attempt to prosecute you for a crime you truly did not commit.

Many plea bargains to lesser charges are struck because the State bullies defendants with purposefully exaggerated charges.

Also, Police investigators are not always honest and/or infallible… nor are witnesses... and the State relies on said investigators and witnesses to provide evidence… so innocent people do get prosecuted too.

Refusing to cooperate with a police investigation is NOT against the Law… it is a fundamental right !

Refusing to hand over a piece of evidence is most certainly against the law. You think OP could have said, "Nope, you can't take my cricket bat"?

If he wasn't required by law to hand over his phone, he would have never done so. If he wasn't required by law to inform investigators what his Apple ID/password/or phone passcode was, he would've told them to figure it out themselves. The DT gave Moller a password or passcode, but it didn't work. OP either gave them the wrong one or he changed it remotely.

 

[liesbeth]

Excellent point about the amount of blood, Val1. I also noticed that. Head wounds, especially, are notorious for profuse bleeding.

Considering the massive damage that Black Talons inflict and the relatively small aggregate amount of blood throughout the house, I'd say Reeva died almost instantly (a "couple of breaths" according to Saayman) - hence so little actual bleeding. (Honestly, I'm not even sure the arterial spurts were actual arterial spurts. Looking at crime scene blood spatter photos/demos, the "spurts" at OP crime scene looked nothing like the dramatic ones I've seen. They really are unmistakable. But, hey, I'm just an armchair sleuth. lol)

If she was still alive and breathing at the bottom of the stairs (based on Saayman's testimony, I'd say that scenario is ultra-slim to ZERO), I'd expect a lot MORE arterial spurts...especially in light of THREE horrific gunshot wounds.)

This is one more nail in OP's coffin - he knew she was already dead when he broke open the toilet door (OR waited to call for help to insure she was dead) and she did NOT "die in his arms".

I agree with you. I mentioned in an earlier thread that the defence pathologist, Botha, had said that the blood from Reeva's head wound did not have time to leak into her respiratory tract. This means she died very soon after she was shot in the head.

I've always wondered why the state's blood spatter expert, Van der Nest, agreed with Oscar's version that Reeva was alive when he carried her down the stairs.

Then I realised that if Reeva died downstairs in Oscar's arms (around 03:25) the first set of sounds around 03:00 am could not have been the gun shots.

Which means the second set of sounds at around 03:15-03:16 must have been the gun shots. And I suspect this is what Mr Nel will argue.

 

[Val1]

With respect, I believe you are seriously misremembering…

The missing phone was only mentioned twice by Moller :

1- Moller explained how he determined the existence of a 2nd iPhone (24 March Session 3)

2- Moller explained how he obtained the missing iPhone on 26 February (25 March Session 1)

These were done almost in passing with no insistence on any details… and Nel did not pursue that avenue at all… not with Moller or OP

However I happily stand to be corrected with a reference

Should I get time(another son is moving home again this week...) and it hasn't been deleted from the video clips I'll try to find it for you, point was it wasn't during Moller because that was just laying the foundation that the cell phone had been removed, it was in the last week or two of the defense witnesses where I recall catching it just at or near the beginning of one of the sessions with both Nel and Roux up talking to the judge. It seemed to me that Nel wanted to cross on it but was being prevented.

 

[Greater Than]

I totally agree with your 4th sentence.

However, I suspect the evidence Nel needs is already before the Court:

#1 - Nel has OP's testimony saying that he and RS were the ONLY people in the house that night.

#2 - IF any other witness testified that Frank was in the house that night [OR] if someone knew that Frank was in the house that night (i.e. the police officer Frank told he was sleeping there that night), AND that "someone" made a deposition to that effect AND IF said deposition was entered into evidence, imho, that would constitute evidence.

True, but I just think he if was going to make a big deal about Frank's presence he would've addressed it specifically with OP when he was testifying. I mean, look how long he spent questioning him about the jeans on top of the duvet. Frank's name was only casually mentioned by Carice Stander. If Nel was going to drive home the point that Frank could've been called for assistance instead of Stander, I truly feel he would've asked OP why he didn't. He asked him why he didn't press the panic button, and why he didn't intentionally set his house alarm off...I just can't see him saving a crucial question like that for his closing argument without even asking the accused for an answer.

There won't be any surprises for Roux. He gets a copy of the state's argument before he's required to submit his own.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Considering the mountains of evidence and damning, contradictory self-testimony, you&#8217;ve got to wonder if even some staunch Oscar supporters have their doubts about his innocence.

Nah. Probably not.

Blind in their pathetic loyalty, most refuse to see that a sports hero is just that - a &#8220;sports hero&#8221;. It is not the sum total of a man. (Although no doubt many supporters would argue otherwise.)

Gold Medals do not make Oscar a hero in all parts of his life. Without his medals, without his Cheetah blades, he&#8217;s just an ordinary guy, just like everyone else - exactly like he&#8217;s always demanded his entire life.

He should be treated like an ordinary murderer.

 

[liesbeth]

Should I get time(another son is moving home again this week...) and it hasn't been deleted from the video clips I'll try to find it for you, point was it wasn't during Moller because that was just laying the foundation that the cell phone had been removed, it was in the last week or two of the defense witnesses where I recall catching it just at or near the beginning of one of the sessions with both Nel and Roux up talking to the judge. It seemed to me that Nel wanted to cross on it but was being prevented.

Roux talked about the missing extension cord and in reply Nel mentioned that things had been removed by the defence (or gone missing, I can't remember the exact words) from the house. I've always assumed that Nel was referring to the phone and the handbag when he said this.

I have a link in my notes, just a moment...

Edit: Monday, 30 June 2014, Session 3 @41:40 min

Nel: We're talking about lots of things that happened, and...

Judge: Well it doesn't assist to go on and on about that.

 

[Greater Than]

So if one of his phones and RS's(broken into two pieces) were at least partially hidden under the bloody towel/s and mat, with the gun on top of the mat, just when did he retrieve his phones ... before or after he claims he saw who he'd shot in the toilet room? Depending on the answer, when did he find the time to cry over her, "battle" to get her out, let her bleed out on the bath room floor while making the calls we know about, then manage to leverage her and himself up off the floor(without assistance and apparently very little blood to walls/sink/tub, indicating no assistance required) to make his grand descent down the stairs while stopping at the top landing long enough to be sure he wouldn't set off his alarm system where that last arterial spurt is said to have happened?

To me it seems like he was incredibly lucky with the little amount of blood. A few pools, a bit of trail, a couple of smudges and a few spurts and whatever he'd managed to soak up with the towels and his clothes(of which we really didn't hear much, where's the top that he had been reported as wearing when he carried RS down the stairs, how about the gunpowder, blood and tissue evidence on his "pants", top and prosthetics?) Yes he washed himself off, but blood trace and gunpowder residue doesn't wash away that easily and certainly not from clothing. Should he win an appeal, shouldn't all of that been entered as evidence too, or was it?

The closer we get to a possible conviction, the more I feel we've been kept in the dark.

I think after he broke the door down he dragged her out into the bathroom and checked her phone to see of she had called/texted anyone. Her phone requires a passcode to unlock it which he didn't know, so I think he threw it down in anger which is what cause the cover to pop off. Then he left her laying there and went to get his phone(s?). I think when he got the phone(s) from the nightstand, that's when blood was sprayed from his hands onto the wall over the headboard. Then he made his phone calls and went back to pick her up to get her the hell out of there.

MOO

 

[AJ_DS]

Refusing to hand over a piece of evidence is most certainly against the law. You think OP could have said, "Nope, you can't take my cricket bat"?

If he wasn't required by law to hand over his phone, he would have never done so. If he wasn't required by law to inform investigators what his Apple ID/password/or phone passcode was, he would've told them to figure it out themselves. The DT gave Moller a password or passcode, but it didn't work. OP either gave them the wrong one or he changed it remotely.

<modsnip>

OP was not required by law to hand over anything.

The State asked the Defence that they surrender the 0020 phone&#8230; and the Defence complied with the request (same as with the box of .38 bullets that was returned to the State)

Had the Defence refused&#8230; the State would have had to obtain a warrant from a Judge&#8230; then and ONLY then is it against the Law not to comply.

The REASONS the Defence and OP complied with the request from the State :

1. No valid reason to deny the State's request
2. No point in denying the State's request when a Judge would immediately grant a warrant anyways
3. Demonstrate good faith and full cooperation to secure bail

<modsnip>

The same goes for the 0020 phone&#8230; if police had noticed the person trying to leave with it, they could have stopped it and said this is evidence in a crime scene&#8230; but Police did not see the person leave with the phone OR they saw it and did not object to it (same as with box of .38 bullets).

<modsnip>

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I agree with you. I mentioned in an earlier thread that the defence pathologist, Botha, had said that the blood from Reeva's head wound did not have time to leak into her respiratory tract. This means she died very soon after she was shot in the head.

I've always wondered why the state's blood spatter expert, Van der Nest, agreed with Oscar's version that Reeva was alive when he carried her down the stairs.

Then I realised that if Reeva died downstairs in Oscar's arms (around 03:25) the first set of sounds around 03:00 am could not have been the gun shots.

Which means the second set of sounds at around 03:15-03:16 must have been the gun shots. And I suspect this is what Mr Nel will argue.

So, in a nut shell, Botha is supporting the state&#8217;s case, while Van der Nest is supporting the defense&#8217;s case! LOL I&#8217;m getting SO confused!

Bingo! Your analysis is the only logical scenario. I&#8217;ve long thought the very same thing. The first set of sounds was the cricket bat, the second set, the gunshots.

This makes the murder all the more horrific.

This means that OP was bashing on the toilet door with the bat (as well as the metal bathtub plate and wall tiles) and yelling/screaming at her for 15 full minutes.

I cannot imagine the pure terror poor Reeva suffered - ALONE, defenseless, in a dark toilet for that length of time. It&#8217;s nothing short of torture.

I swear, Oscar Pistorius should be publicly drawn and quartered for the heinous coward he is.

 

[liesbeth]

So, in a nut shell, Botha is supporting the state&#8217;s case, while Van der Nest is supporting the defense&#8217;s case! LOL I&#8217;m getting SO confused!

Bingo! Your analysis is the only logical scenario. I&#8217;ve long thought the very same thing. The first set of sounds was the cricket bat, the second set, the gunshots.

This makes the murder all the more horrific.

This means that OP was bashing on the toilet door with the bat (as well as the metal bathtub plate and wall tiles) and yelling/screaming at her for 15 full minutes.

I cannot imagine the pure terror poor Reeva suffered - ALONE, defenseless, in a dark toilet for that length of time. It&#8217;s nothing short of torture.

I swear, Oscar Pistorius should be publicly drawn and quartered for the heinous coward he is.

Yes. Also...if Oscar broke the upper part of the door with the bat (but not the lower panels) at about 03:00 am it would explain a lot of things:

a) The muted light that Mrs Stipp saw through the toilet cubicle's window,
b) the fact that the screams from the cubicle was heard by the Stipps and Burger and Johnson,
c) the escalating intensity of the screams before the shots means Reeva saw him with the gun and
d) this also explains her defensive position (why would she try to defend herself with her arms lifted to her head if she couldn't see Oscar with the gun?)
e) and the fact that she was standing upright (with arms lifted?) in front of the door when the first bullet hit her in the hip. Lastly it makes sense that
e) the crack that runs through the bullet hole on the lower panel was made when he used his hands (as he testified) to tear open the panels.

The most horrifying thing of all is that Reeva must have seen OP with the gun. It's the only thing that explains the light, the audible screams escalating in intensity, her upright position with hands lifted to protect her face.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Should I get time(another son is moving home again this week...) and it hasn't been deleted from the video clips I'll try to find it for you, point was it wasn't during Moller because that was just laying the foundation that the cell phone had been removed, it was in the last week or two of the defense witnesses where I recall catching it just at or near the beginning of one of the sessions with both Nel and Roux up talking to the judge. It seemed to me that Nel wanted to cross on it but was being prevented.

val1, one memorable clip about the submission of a PT court exhibit regarding the 2 cell phones, 2 iPads, 2 blackberries and the missing cell was handed over to the judge on the morning of 24th of March (minutes before Annette Stipp was sworn in.)
The SABC youtube video originally contained the PT submission, exhibit XX ..however, the first 2 minutes of that video were excised within days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AzYslyjzmY


Fortunately, those first 2 minutes of court recording are still available on soundcloud
https://soundcloud.com/primediabroadcasting/am-court-proceedings-20140324

 

[kaos]

Somebody asked earlier where OP washed himself, it was at a sink in the kitchen.

Listening to some more of OP, I forgot about him trying to get one over on Nel when asked about the black talons, that Nel had been to the same shooting range as him and used the same gun too - and then said it again obviously trying to rattle Nel. I wonder who told him that info about Nel though?

 

[808]

Somebody asked earlier where OP washed himself, it was at a sink in the kitchen.

Listening to some more of OP, I forgot about him trying to get one over on Nel when asked about the black talons, that Nel had been to the same shooting range as him and used the same gun too - and then said it again obviously trying to rattle Nel. I wonder who told him that info about Nel though?

Wow I missed that what a jerk. I thought Nel could have made more of the fact that OP's response to why he was using hollow points.
He said it was simply the ammo for his gun when clearly he could have used normal rounds, maybe Nel will nail this fact home in his summation as the question is already in evidence :idea:.