Trial Discussion Thread #5 - 14.03.11-12, Day 7-8

[JuneBug67]

BBM - except that while he was trying to 'resuscitate' Reeva, Stipp said OP was crying (and praying), not screaming and vomiting. Did he scream when she 'died' in his arms? He doesn't mention it at all in his affidavit (yet he does mention shouting at Reeva and at the intruder). And the witnesses recall screaming and arguments before the shooting. The probability of every witness being mistaken (and only OP being correct) is highly unlikely, in my opinion. Then there's the pathologist's statement about Reeva eating just a couple of hours before her death. Unless she ate while she slept, she must have still been awake at around midnight/1am (contradicting OP's claims that they went to bed at 10pm and fell asleep. I would like to hear all the evidence too, as I'm sure most of us do, but at this stage, he comes across as an angry narcissistic man-child who's livid that he's ended up in this situation, a situation that for once he can't get get someone else to take the blame for.

The screaming was between the first and second sets of sounds as heard by Stipp. The timing of the screaming fits with both the prosecution and defense cases, the only difference is who was screaming and the reason for it. The witnesses don't have to be wrong. It is before the "shooting". Except the defense claims it was a "batting", not a shooting. I don't find what he may have been doing later (crying and praying) dependent on what he may have been doing earlier (shrieking and screaming).

The affidavit was a limited document for a limited purpose: bail. It was remarked at the time that he could really be sinking his long term ship by being so detailed. Leaving things out, whether they were true or manufactured, is only legally sensible. He certainly wasn't obligated to lay out his entire defense case at that point in the process. So the fact that he doesn't describe every articulation he might have made doesn't really raise suspicion in me.

As for the meal, I definitely agree. While it seems like it is not impossible for food to be digested that slowly, it is certainly is a little anomalous. It is something the defense has to deal with, for sure.

 

[JuneBug67]

Can I confirm whether it has been established that the argument was definitely coming from Pistorius' house? I never quite got that. Whether it was just sounds from a general direction, or more definite. Also, how many witnesses to date have testified about it?

Thanks

 

[Interested Bystander]

The majority of responses on Twitter to OP's vomathon linked it to post traumatic stress disorder.

Just an observation, I haven't an opinion on it really.

They may well be right but help was available to help him through his "ordeal". I felt that he may not have been treated in order to allow him to shake, cry, vomit etc for the benefit of the judge.

His first week in court he displayed no health problems as far as I can remember and the press tell us that he was out enjoying himself, partying, drinking etc before the trial. Something is not quite right here. If he is suffering from PTSD it has not been apparent in the last few months before the trial. Perhaps he managed to shut it out and now the trial has reminded him of the awful deed he has done.

 

[james83]

This may well have been discussed before and if it has i apologise.
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is in Oscar's affidavit he says and i quote

"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door".

Now from looking at the size of the gap in the door here

(graphic) http://www.tmz.com/2013/05/31/oscar-pistorius-murder-scene-bloody-photos-surface/

Clearly all you would be able to fit through that gap would be an arm, i think it's very conservative to estimate the shortest distance between the floor and the bottom of the gap is 100 centimeters, it would be impossible to pick up a key through that hole in the door from that height with one arm.
So how on earth did he manage to pick up the key?.

 

[JuneBug67]

They may well be right but help was available to help him through his "ordeal". I felt that he may not have been treated in order to allow him to shake, cry, vomit etc for the benefit of the judge.

I'm sure that's true. But if it was genuine, I'm not sure it's wrong. We are moved by the emotions of witnesses and we use them sometimes to assess credibility and resonance with their words. If that was genuine, it's probably relevant. Relevant to what is up to the individual.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Yes, there are people who can voluntarily cause themselves to gag, vomit, and then dry heave. They are usually known among their peers as either "Drama Queens" or "Drama Kings". This is not something I would particularly want to do in life. But there are those who do so.

I was interested in reading about OP giving a "look that could kill" when his friend was on the stand today testifying about the gun incidents in the restaurant and through the sunroof of the car.

Poor Oscar! He thought all of his "good friends" were going to stand by his side and continue to lie and cover up for him about his outrageous behaviors. Except when these "friends" faced the very real possibility of jail time for themselves, they started to change their tune.

I can well understand these young men with their "macho" posings being willing to "take the blame" and engage in "cover ups" for their very wealthy, very famous friend, the Blade Runner. And when reality hits, it is very tough.

Quite frankly, I feel sorry for all of them. But most of all for the young lady who lost her life. This seems to me to be another tale of "Too much, too soon". Perhaps a different background, but the outcome is the same.

---------------

BIB I agree. I must add that this all being related to a murder case , far more serious than a minor incident which friends sometimes say white lies for each other , takes the blame for them etc. One of their best friend is killed violently and now under the cold soil and they swear to speak the truth before they testify.All the witnesses should be and probably are aware that they have to be honest and objective and they owe this to the victim for her closure and justice to prevail.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I am most likely being stupid, but in that crime scene photo posted, I can't really see evidence where OP attempted to batter the door down with a cricket bat...

I think the photo is of the inside face of the door and there is one panel missing (left side of photo). I guess the one he knocked out to get the key. There are two gunshots marked and I suppose the other two are in the panel that has been knocked out and nobody has seen that yet.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Hi friends :wave: I see we somehow are still on the screaming/gunshot/cricket bat saga. Bwaaaa!

 

[Interested Bystander]

This may well have been discussed before and if it has i apologise.
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is in Oscar's affidavit he says and i quote

"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door".

Now from looking at the size of the gap in the door here

(graphic) http://www.tmz.com/2013/05/31/oscar-pistorius-murder-scene-bloody-photos-surface/

Clearly all you would be able to fit through that gap would be an arm, i think it's very conservative to estimate the shortest distance between the floor and the bottom of the gap is 100 centimeters, it would be impossible to pick up a key through that hole in the door from that height with one arm.
So how on earth did he manage to pick up the key?.

Could he have used the bat to knock the key under the door into the main area of the bathroom?? In all honesty I cannot remember whether there was a gap under the door so just a theory.

 

[Dmacky]

This may well have been discussed before and if it has i apologise.
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is in Oscar's affidavit he says and i quote

"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door".

Now from looking at the size of the gap in the door here

(graphic) http://www.tmz.com/2013/05/31/oscar-pistorius-murder-scene-bloody-photos-surface/

Clearly all you would be able to fit through that gap would be an arm, i think it's very conservative to estimate the shortest distance between the floor and the bottom of the gap is 100 centimeters, it would be impossible to pick up a key through that hole in the door from that height with one arm.
So how on earth did he manage to pick up the key?.

Hi James :wave:
Great observation. BBM ~ because it DIDN'T happen. :smile:

:welcome: to the forum James

 

[JuneBug67]

This may well have been discussed before and if it has i apologise.
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is in Oscar's affidavit he says and i quote

"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door".

Now from looking at the size of the gap in the door here

(graphic) http://www.tmz.com/2013/05/31/oscar-pistorius-murder-scene-bloody-photos-surface/

Clearly all you would be able to fit through that gap would be an arm, i think it's very conservative to estimate the shortest distance between the floor and the bottom of the gap is 100 centimeters, it would be impossible to pick up a key through that hole in the door from that height with one arm.
So how on earth did he manage to pick up the key?.

Could have reached in with the cricket bat in hand and knocked it through the gap at the bottom of the door maybe? Pure speculation. No idea if the distance between the floor and bottom of the door would have accommodated that.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

This may well have been discussed before and if it has i apologise.
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is in Oscar's affidavit he says and i quote

"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door".

Now from looking at the size of the gap in the door here

(graphic) http://www.tmz.com/2013/05/31/oscar-pistorius-murder-scene-bloody-photos-surface/

Clearly all you would be able to fit through that gap would be an arm, i think it's very conservative to estimate the shortest distance between the floor and the bottom of the gap is 100 centimeters, it would be impossible to pick up a key through that hole in the door from that height with one arm.
So how on earth did he manage to pick up the key?.

And that key mysteriously jumped exactly to the same point where OP's fingers would just reach. (Seems impossible on the photo but guess DT must have measured that height and the distance could be lower than it seems on photo) :facepalm:

 

[JuneBug67]

Could he have used the bat to knock the key under the door into the main area of the brthroom?? In all honesty I cannot remember whether there was a gap under the door so just a theory.

Sorry! I accidentally copied you.

 

[Lyra500]

This may well have been discussed before and if it has i apologise.
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is in Oscar's affidavit he says and i quote

"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door".

Now from looking at the size of the gap in the door here

(graphic) http://www.tmz.com/2013/05/31/oscar-pistorius-murder-scene-bloody-photos-surface/

Clearly all you would be able to fit through that gap would be an arm, i think it's very conservative to estimate the shortest distance between the floor and the bottom of the gap is 100 centimeters, it would be impossible to pick up a key through that hole in the door from that height with one arm.
So how on earth did he manage to pick up the key?.

That is a question which immediately came to mind when i saw the photo. It seems like yet another questionable assertion from OP's affidavit. Although i am sure a sure a bevy of people will be along to explain how it is perfectly possible any moment now.

 

[MeeBee]

BBM

Immunity is not granted to jailhouse snitches in South Africa.. or in any country that is based on the British System of Jurisprudence..

in fact I doubt if it is, in Texas where you speak from. to gain Immunity wouldn't the jailhouse snitch have to be involved with the crime the snitched-upon is accused of?? Immunity is a vastly different concept than merely time off or probation.. one can be called back from those two positions.

Immunity from Prosecution, under the law that Darrin is burdened with is hemmed in and barbed wired with very strict and enforceable conditions.. often the penalty is actually harsher than the sentence for the original offence. . it is usually added onto that original penalty. Darrin isn't on probation, or under any sentence for which time off is applicable. ..

hope this helps..

Trooper, this is actually something that happens in the US. It doesn't mean the inmates are lying to curry favor. But I ALWAYS take inmate testimony with a grain of salt.

 

[Dmacky]

And that key mysteriously jumped exactly to the same point where OP's fingers would just reach. (Seems impossible on the photo but guess DT must have measured that height and the distance could be lower than it seems on photo) :facepalm:

Surely he had a spare key, no?????

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Surely he had a spare key, no?????

No, he says in his affi that he found the key on the floor.:facepalm:

 

[MeeBee]

I imagine the PT team will have had tests carried out. Part of the DT argument is that they both sound the same (which IMO is incorrect). PT will need to be able to shoot down this argument and as far as I can see it can only be done by themselves conducting actual tests BUT they would have to conduct them in a fully tiled bathroom of a very similar build to OP's. I imagine shots fired, or bats hitting a door in an enclosed space must have created echos, the gun shots moreso than the bat IMO. I expect to hear something about echos in the ballistics report.

I don't think this is an experiment either side will want to do since it may only serve to confirm the other side's case. The ole glove don't fit trick. And then the other side will have access to the results.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Surely he had a spare key, no?????

Could be, and he knocked the key out when bashing the door and used the spare. I know there is a lot of doubt that he did retrieve the key so it will be interesting to hear what the PT think.

 

[JuneBug67]

Hi friends :wave: I see we somehow are still on the screaming/gunshot/cricket bat saga. Bwaaaa!

Get used to it! It's the defense's case. It's not going to go away.