Trial Discussion Thread #5 - 14.03.11-12, Day 7-8

[minor4th]

Suspended sentence and/or fine with his license to own guns being revoked. I highly doubt he will serve a minutes sentence for that charge.

I read that it's possible for his sentence to be suspended even if he's convicted of culpable homicide? Is that true? If so, that might explain why the state overcharged him with premeditated murder (IMO) - it's much more dramatic, and they want to get him in jail.

 

[BritsKate]

I thought I had been following the trial and have not heard ANY evidence of he was looking at *advertiser censored*/used cars. Link please

TIA

<snipped for space RBBM - sorry for the bad "quote" don't know how to fix it

The trial just hasn't caught up with MSM yet. It's been leaked and it's everywhere...I don't know that it means a lot - I guess it will depend on various other factors.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-before-reeva-steenkamp-was-shot-9148838.html

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/02/23/oscar-surfed-*advertiser censored*-sites-on-fatal-night1

http://www.news.com.au/world/oscar-...edia-reports-say/story-fndir2ev-1226835570382

 

[Madeleine74]

I would hope (and expect) that the prosecutor would not bring a case to trial and waste resources if said prosecutor knew the evidence was "so compromised" that no reasonable judge could possibly find a defendant guilty. I certainly hope that the state has better witnesses than this guy who was clearly not the best or brightest or most articulate. He's one of those "hey I just did what they asked me to do and I did nuttin else even if more info came in." I dislike those types personally, but there are many of them out there.

 

[minor4th]

But do you think that kind of sentencing would occur for the average bloke?

I'm wondering if he might end up with a more severe sentence than the average bloke because of his celebrity and the state's apparent drive to keep him in jail

 

[james83]

What is the situation regarding Oscar taking the stand?, is it a definite or an option?, surely given he is the only person who knows the truth means he will have to?.

 

[JuneBug67]

Im of the opinion that if looked through the keyhole, he would have seen nothing. I've just looked through my bathroom keyhole and all I can see is a very small portion of the opposite wall...considering the keyhole in relation to the loo, I can't fathom why he would have done that tbh.

With regard to looking in, testimony from Stipp suggests the toilet room light wasn't on at key times early in the sequence. If accurate, he would have been severely hampered looking into the room under most conditions.

 

[FrancesB]

I've seen comments elsewhere that someone in the police deliberately contaminated material evidence as a means to protect Pistorius. I was pleased to hear on oscartrial199 from a forensic scientist that contaminated evidence does not necessarily ruin the case, as other physical evidence such as blood spatter can trump even compromised evidence (such as police footprint on the door). Still I think the police work on this case has been shoddy in the extreme.

 

[BritsKate]

What is the situation regarding Oscar taking the stand?, is it a definite or an option?, surely given he is the only person who knows the truth means he will have to?.

He's not required to legally. Legal experts state he must; Roux states he will; and until he does, it's all opinion.

That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[soozieqtips]

I'm wondering if he might end up with a more severe sentence than the average bloke because of his celebrity and the state's apparent drive to keep him in jail

The state's apparent drive to keep him in jail? The state believes he deliberately killed Reeva after an argument. If that turns out to be true, jail is where he belongs.

 

[JuneBug67]

Did anybody else find Nel's demeanour odd and unnatural dealing with Fresco this morning? Seemed to strike a strange, offputting tone I'm not even sure how to describe. I have the general sense the judge has become somewhat less enamoured of him than Roux.

 

[Zinn]

I wonder if a theory will be put forth describing where she was standing when she was shot. I believe the State's case is that she was standing but I don't recall hearing more than that. I'm specifically wondering if she may have been bracing the door shut with her hip and shoulder when she sustained the shot to the hip. I'm wondering if they will be able to determine how close she was to the door when a shot penetrated the door and hit her hip. Would they be able to tell from the door fragments in the hip shot?

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

I wonder if, for purposes of clarity, we could agree on some language.

Door handle - the metal lever-type part of the door that the hand touches to open the door

Key hole - the plate and hole where a key is inserted

Stumps - as in walking on stumps, the bottom portion of the accused legs which he is well known to be able to both walk and even run on when not wearing his prostheses. As a child he participated in races while only on his stumps.

Prosthetics, prostheses - artificial legs

**There is no "door knob" on the door in evidence**
--------------------

For reference:

Liter = measures liquid
1 liter (L or l.) = 1,000 milliliters (ml or ml.)

30 ml. = 1 oz. of U.S. liquid - If you remember this, you will be able to convert


Meter = measures length (or height)
1 meter (M or m.) = 100 centimeters (cm or cm.)

2.5 cm. = 1 inch

1 meter = 3.28 feet (slightly longer than a yard stick) - if you remember this, you will be able to convert

 

[james83]

Or she was actually sitting on the loo!

Bullet holes don't appear to be high enough imo.

 

[minor4th]

I would hope (and expect) that the prosecutor would not bring a case to trial and waste resources if said prosecutor knew the evidence was "so compromised" that no reasonable judge could possibly find a defendant guilty. I certainly hope that the state has better witnesses than this guy who was clearly not the best or brightest or most articulate. He's one of those "hey I just did what they asked me to do and I did nuttin else even if more info came in." I dislike those types personally, but there are many of them out there.

I would hope the same, but this is a pervasive problem in South Africa apparently.

For example, read this - it's quite enlightening about the corruption among police and prosecutors:

http://www.minnpost.com/christian-s...-corruption-south-africa-nears-breaking-point

I don't think Nel is the one to decide whether to bring charges or bring the case to trial. I think Nel is just working with what he was given. To be honest, even Nel does not seem like his heart is in it IMO

Since this case started, two lead investigators have been removed/resigned for their actions in the case:

Hilton Botha was removed in February 2013 when prosecutors became aware that Botha is charged with 7 counts of attempted murder and we've since learned of his mishandling the crime scene and putting forth his speculations as fact when they were later proved to be false.

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-21-botha-dropped-as-investigator-from-pistorius-case/

Schoombie van Rensburg was pressured to resign in December 2013 because he kept the crucial door in his office for cops to walk over, contrary to protocol that requires evidence to be placed in a secure storage area.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2013/12/16/cop-who-led-pistorius-crime-scene-team-quits

 

[minor4th]

The state's apparent drive to keep him in jail? The state believes he deliberately killed Reeva after an argument. If that turns out to be true, jail is where he belongs.

Of course, but I believe the police and prosecution has been overly zealous in this case and overcharged him

 

[katydid23]

I listened to most of the testimony in bed last night, and went to sleep very depressed and pessimistic. Roux won the day and will likely win the case. The judge seems to be on his side and I think Oscar will walk away from this evil deed. I will just hope that the natural laws of karma take over, and I will not rely upon this world's justice system, but pin my hopes upon the Greater Good. And So It Is:heartbeat:

 

[james83]

Did anybody else find Nel's demeanour odd and unnatural dealing with Fresco this morning? Seemed to strike a strange, offputting tone I'm not even sure how to describe. I have the general sense the judge has become somewhat less enamoured of him than Roux.

I really don't know what to make of Nel, he doesn't come across as very protective of his witness's at times.
There just seems to be very laid back demeanor about him.
Maybe it's all part of the plan and the best is yet to come.

 

[JuneBug67]

Of course, but I believe the police and prosecution has been overly zealous in this case and overcharged him

I think also that celebrity cuts both ways. Had it been accepted that it was an accident there would have been a great hue and cry because of the things that would have hit the rumour mill and spread like wild fire. They would have been extremely vulnerable to an appearance of favouritism or corruption, and vulnerable to appearing to be diminishing the issue of violence against women which is endemic in South Africa. If Oscar is innocent of knowingly targeting Reeva he's probably better to be found so in a trial instead of the appearance of a backroom deal that would only fuel various special interests ad infinitum.

 

[BritsKate]

I read that it's possible for his sentence to be suspended even if he's convicted of culpable homicide? Is that true? If so, that might explain why the state overcharged him with premeditated murder (IMO) - it's much more dramatic, and they want to get him in jail.

True, yes. Likely, though? I doubt it. While the sentence is indeed at the judge's discretion, as many factors are taken into account as an American manslaughter conviction. A guilty verdict in a culpable homicide case where shooting is the means of death as opposed to a vehicle could, in theory, be very different animals.

Nel would certainly not be the first prosecutor in history to overcharge if your assertions are true. I can think of a whole lot of American cases in which the prosecutor sought seemingly impossible to prove charges - usually not for drama though, imo, but to at least secure a conviction on 'lessers' while obviously hoping for a maximum penalty on the highest charge.

MOO

ETA: Drama...when I think drama in court I can't help but think of Kelly Siegler in the Susan Wright case. Anyone remember that? Ah, but she was an awesome prosecutor! She does the show 'Cold Justice' now.

Wright was convicted of 1st degree but her sentence was reduced to twenty years on appeal.

 

[james83]

Of course, but I believe the police and prosecution has been overly zealous in this case and overcharged him

Are you saying you think murder would have sufficed?.