Trial Discussion Thread #50 - 14.08.8, Day 40 ~final arguments continue~

[lithgow1]

If he knew it was her (I think he did) and there had been a row, and he fired at her in temper in the heat of the moment I don't think he did, again because of 4 shots, getting the gun etc), would you still think that was premeditated?

Yep, I would. I really don't see how shooting someone in a fury or the heat of the moment is any justification - or it would have to be a very specific set of circumstances that i don't see in this case. If you can't control yourself and just walk away, and instrad you pick up a gun, then you should have to bear the consequences of that loss of control and that decision to arm yourself. Anyway, I agree with you that he knew it was her, deliberately shot her while in some rage fuelled state and then immediately began to think 'how the .... do I get out of this'. I think he's a murderer as well as a lot of other negative things and hope he spends the next 20+ years in prison on account of his actions on that night.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I want to thank Oscar Pistorius. NOT for what he did that horrific night, but for the indirect “gifts” he’s given the world.


He reminded us that sports heroes are just that - sports heroes. Just ordinary men with a specific, special talent, nothing more, nothing less.

He reminded us how dangerous it is to put such sports heroes on a pedestal.

He reminded us to question WHO we idolize - and why.

He reminded us that there are far more genuine, far more deserving, mostly unsung heroes all across the globe.

He reminded us that violence against women is not only a virulent plague in SA but across the world.

He reminded us that domestic violence cuts across ALL class, wealth, gender and race lines.

He reminded us to look beyond our backyards to explore how the rest of the world works.

He reminded us that not even money can save you from yourself.

He reminded us that credibility and honesty are everything - without them, reputation vaporizes.

He reminded us how fleeting fame and fortune can be - a seductive, nasty mirage hiding reality.

He reminded us that good character is core to everything else.

He reminded us that mental illness comes in many, often subtle guises*.

He reminded us to seriously look beyond all the illusory, toxic 21st century hype and gloss.

He reminded us to not ignore behavioral warning signs of brewing trouble, potential mental disorders, of impending crisis.

He reminded us that a man’s actions and history (and Whatsapp messages) tell us exactly who he is.

He reminded us that he worshiped power and material success above all ... and society worshiped Oscar.

He reminded us that “heroes” are simply a societal reflection of ourselves.

He reminded us that families and society can unwittingly create monsters - by lack of discipline and holding up certain narrow values as the “ideal”, to the exclusion of all else (this automatically creates an unbalanced human being).

He reminded us to stop and take a long look at what our most cherished values and beliefs are - to carefully consider who we next declare a “hero”.

This case breaks my heart for many reasons. It’s a perfect microcosm of the very worst and very best in humanity; it illustrates the profound fragility of human life, how fast it can ALL disappear, that status and money mean less than nothing without the most valuable thing of all - love.

Oscar had it ALL except love in his heart. Balanced, kind, generous people with love in their hearts (for self and others) do not commit cold-blooded murder. Yes, Oscar had an athlete’s iron physical and mental discipline - but he never had any other real discipline (yes, I believe his family subtly gave him favored treatment, “poor brave Oscar” - they never stopped him with any boundaries). His mind set, personality, ego and entitlement issues did not happen overnight.

In the end, his family has failed him from his earliest days, by not holding him to account for past misdeeds, by giving him pass after pass, forever excusing and protecting him. They have literally allowed him to get away with murder.

Tell me who/what you worship and I will tell you who you are.


* Yes, I believe the Westkoppies docs seriously, inexplicably got it wrong; there’s something profoundly unhinged with OP. Normal people don’t kill their loved ones and then go party. If allowed to walk free, he WILL commit violence again. Why wouldn’t he? No consequences guarantee it.

 

[fox1lady]

I honestly had no idea who Oscar Pistorius was until I read about his shooting Reeva Steenkamp dead. I hadn't heard of either one of them to be honest but I really really would love to know Reeva. It is so so sad!

How cold must Oscar be that he has never ever put himself at the mercy of the court and taken responsibility for her death.

 

[IndianSummer]

Agree!
Ms Burger had no dog in the fight.
Her immediate reaction when she heard on the news OP shot his G/F thinking her an intruder was ...NO!
I'm sorry but all the kings horses can't make that go away IMO

RBBM

The silly thing about that statement is that at any time he could have accepted culpability and plead guilty to culpable homicide. Perhaps the State may have once considered a plea deal - but Roux, or Oscar, or perhaps both placed their bets on a full acquittal which was unlikely at even the outset, imo, and much less likely since his rather damning testimony. Now CH seems like the best bet (for the defence)...were it not for those blood-curdling screams (which were the very reason the State ever pursued a murder charge in the first place).

All JMO

 

[lithgow1]

'Tell me who/what you worship and I will tell you who you are.' Respectfully snipped by me (think that's the protocol).

Lots of food for thought in that post. I don't really worship anyone/anything but I admire Johnny Cash very much.

 

[Nausicaa]

"...he snapped like an abused woman..."

I didn't listen to the bit in which Roux used this expression but it has been widely reported and if accurate I think it hangs Pistorius as he deserves. It appears that counsel for the defence has been so infected by his client's attitudes that he too has lost all sense of decency. If the only metaphor he can find to shed light on OP's alleged attitudes is one which tramples afresh on the deepest feelings of Reeva's loved ones and presents the killer in the role of his own victim it is clear that his capacities are stretched beyond breaking point by the attempt to defend the indefensible.

 

[Greater Than]

My sense of it is that the left side is about that old 'chestnut' reasonableness again. If he really believed there was an intruder was his reaction reasonable? The judge has to consider this. Clearly it was not reasonable in this case as he fired 4 shots. On the right side yes, if he didn't believe it was an intruder, then he knew it was RS. Premeditated speaks for itself, did he plan to shoot her, even in the seconds before he shot, or was pulling the trigger an impulsive, spur of the moment decision. The judge has to decide on the evidence what the process was for OP.

This is answer to Lithgow 1, but the reply to post didn't work, Grrrr1

It also wasn't reasonable because he could have escaped, but chose to confront the danger instead.

It also wasn't reasonable because as an experienced, licensed gun owner, he knew shooting an an unseen/unidentified target is illegal.

It also wasn't reasonable because even without ear witnesses, the pathologist confirmed that Reeva would have screamed after being hit in the hip with the first shot indicating to OP it was mistaken identity, or at the very least there was no more imminent threat since he incapacitated the intruder, but he changed his aim and fired again...and again...and again.

It also wasn't reasonable because he was composed and thinking clearly enough to approach the bathroom cautiously, looking around corners, holding his gun in a manner that an intruder couldn't grab it, didn't fire a warning shot because of the ricochet, but then became a fumbling fool who pulled the trigger without thinking because he was startled. He was awfully cool and collected right up until the moment he suddenly "didn't have time to think," and the shots just fired out of his gun like an involuntary knee-jerk reaction.

Totally and completely unreasonable.

 

[Chelly]

Whatever the verdict, my hope is one day someone digs up Frank and convinces him to talk.

 

[whiterum]

It also wasn't reasonable because he could have escaped, but chose to confront the danger instead.

It also wasn't reasonable because as an experienced, licensed gun owner, he knew shooting an an unseen/unidentified target is illegal.

It also wasn't reasonable because even without ear witnesses, the pathologist confirmed that Reeva would have screamed after being hit in the hip with the first shot indicating to OP it was mistaken identity, or at the very least there was no more imminent threat since he incapacitated the intruder, but he changed his aim and fired again...and again...and again.

It also wasn't reasonable because he was composed and thinking clearly enough to approach the bathroom cautiously, looking around corners, holding his gun in a manner that an intruder couldn't grab it, didn't fire a warning shot because of the ricochet, but then became a fumbling fool who pulled the trigger without thinking because he was startled. He was awfully cool and collected right up until the moment he suddenly "didn't have time to think," and the shots just fired out of his gun like an involuntary knee-jerk reaction.

Totally and completely unreasonable.

Great post Greater Than , totally agree and in light of all those facts IMO he is as guilty as hell !

 

[IndianSummer]

"...he snapped like an abused woman..."

.

Oh mylanta

 

[G.bng]

RBBM

The silly thing about that statement is that at any time he could have accepted culpability and plead guilty to culpable homicide. Perhaps the State may have once considered a plea deal - but Roux, or Oscar, or perhaps both placed their bets on a full acquittal which was unlikely at even the outset, imo, and much less likely since his rather damning testimony. Now CH seems like the best bet (for the defence)...were it not for those blood-curdling screams (which were the very reason the State ever pursued a murder charge in the first place).

All JMO

But the State had already charged premeditated murder at the bail hearing and Burger/Johnson didn't give their statement until several weeks later! And when Burger did give her first statement iirc Roux noted she never described "bloodcurdling screams", simply "screams", with all the other descriptors appearing much later. So I am not so sure the police or prosecution actually gave the option of a plea for CH, (it takes two to tango) and Roux said they didn't. And if there were the need I'm sure that could easily be checked since the prosecution are in effect servants of the court, they give oath to serve the court, the same as all advocates, not the other way around, so notes and records will exist of any plea bargaining offers whether by prosecution or defence.

 

[fox1lady]

Arnold Pistorius tweeted: "As LIGHT destroy DARKNESS, TRUTH will destroy the EVIL."

Yeah too true.... the truth WILL destroy the evil!

What is he trying to say the vile man

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Pistorius-to-learn-fate-on-September-11.html

 

[MissJ]

Ugh! How tastelessly revolting, but at least we get a sense of why some of the Pistorius family behaviour is as it is, with a patriarch like that at its head.

Indeed what a family. Ugh!

 

[seattlechiquita]

yeah, I am not impressed by the behavior of the Pistorius' family. They are arrogant and highly insensitive to the Steenkamps and everyone else but pretty little Oscar.

 

[IndianSummer]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...r-Pistorius-trial-closing-arguments-live.html

The judge was not impressed with the abused woman snapping thing..
and the red pen ...?

How horrible for RS family.
It's like killing her twice IMO.

 

[liesbeth]

From the State's HoA:

Oscar testified that before he fired at the door he screamed like he's never screamed before in his life, but after the gunshots he didn't scream; he just hit the door with the bat and cried.

Oscar: Screams. (Gun) Shots before 3:12. No screams. (Bat) Shots @3:17. Crying.

Yet not a single witness heard screams before the first set of sounds.

Burger & Johnson: Screams. Shots @ 3:16. Silence.
Stipp & Stipp: Shots @3:02. Screams. Shots @3:15. Silence.
Vd Merwe: Intermittent arguing. Shots. Silence. Crying.
Mrs Nhlengethwa: Shot. Silence. Crying.
Mr Nhlengethwa: Crying.

 

[foxbluff]

He was told when he took the stand that he would be given immunity (for a firearm charge at Tasha's I suppose since he handed his loaded weapon to someone under the table) if he swore to tell the truth when giving evidence.

Since trial is over, Masipa asked both the PT and DT today if she should grant him immunity. PT said yes, DT said he was dishonest. I guess procedure is to now call him back so Masipa can question him and make a ruling on it.

Well... you may all call me confused, for I have been under the impression for sometime now that Fresco had already been granted immunity for his testimony!?!

Then yesterday, a poster here reported that she had heard on the radio (?Pistorius Radio) that morning (8/7/14) that OP had changed his plea on the Tashas gun charge to guilty. Yes, I'm confused...

 

[HauntsForHope]

"Fresco has been offered immunity from prosecution in exchange for his truthful testimony in the Pistorius, but he faltered on Tuesday under cross-examination from defence advocate Barry Roux.

eNCA's specialist reporter Karyn Maughn said Fresco's poor showing could threaten his chances of escaping charges."

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/pistorius-trial-fresco-could-face-prosecution

 

[fox1lady]

Whatever the verdict, my hope is one day someone digs up Frank and convinces him to talk.

If in fact he still CAN talk...

 

[jay-jay]

@OscarPistorius
Thank you to my loved ones and those that have been there for me, who have picked me up and helped me through everything.

https://mobile.twitter.com/OscarPistorius

Aww bless uke: