Trial Discussion Thread #52 - 14.11.9, Day 41 ~announcement of the verdict~

[PrimeSuspect]

Here are few tweets of interest.

James Grant @CriminalLawZA •
There is no question of transferred intent on the facts. #OP intended to kill whoever was behind the door & killed that person.

https://twitter.com/CriminalLawZA

James Grant @CriminalLawZA •
Essence: Masipa doesn't accept that accused intended to kill anyone. Huh? His defence was he didn't intend to UNLAWFULLY kill.

James Grant @CriminalLawZA •
Problem: reasons don't follow. If he didn't believe he would kill anyone, then his belief that he was under attack is irrelevant.

CriminalLawZA James Grant State can appeal legal errors. Arguably a legal error to restrict Dolus Eventualis to Reeva when it's irrelevant who was behind the door.

DavidDadic She seems to attach weight to his reaction after the fact-crying etc. But if it was an intruder would he have cried, would he then be guilty?

Simmoa Aislinn Laing Judge Masipa says she must test reasonableness against someone of the same background as OP - straying into controversial territory again here.

Lots more on Twitter

Wow, even Dadic agrees J. Masipa believed OP's crying and theatrics. :sigh:

 

[ShadyLady]

Someone on the previous thread asked whether Judge Masipa had paused the case in order to gauge public opinion. If this was tongue in cheek,just ignore my response.

snip.

It was snark....but I wonder why she seem to bend over numerous times to coddle OP, IMO.

Also, I find her reasoning, unreasonable. She had to completely ignore so much of the testimony and physical evidence.

 

[AJ_DS]

The only reference I have in all my notes is Johnson :

He said that he woke up to a woman's terrible scream at an estimated time of 3:12.

He never heard the first set of bangs… they could have occurred much earlier than the screaming that eventually woke him up

Plus, the 3:12AM is a personal estimation… on what is that estimation based on ?… we simply don't know

… and Masipa does not care… she disregards everything expect what helps her find OP not guilty !!!!

Talk about monkey Justice !!!!

 

[04009margaret]

Yes… very suspicious…. that 3:12AM is nowhere to be found… it was invented out of thin air and used in a material way to discredit key credible, reliable and corroborated witnesses.

Shame on you Masipa !!!!!!!!!

I may be wrong but I thought she attributed that to the neighbour that heard the argument

 

[akp]

Thanks but it does not answer my question : where does the 3:12AM originate from ?

What piece of evidence points to the gunshots (or first bangs) having occured between 3:12 and 3:14 ????????????

Exactly. Her handling of available evidence completely defies logic.

 

[AJ_DS]

I may be wrong but I thought she attributed that to the neighbour that heard the argument

No… van der Merwe never looked at the clock when she heard the bangs… the only thing she said was "around 3AM"

The only time she said was 1:56AM when she woke up, looked at the clock and heard a woman arguing loudly.

This 3:12AM time is a fiasco…

 

[jslk]

Here are few tweets of interest.

DavidDadic She seems to attach weight to his reaction after the fact-crying etc. But if it was an intruder would he have cried, would he then be guilty?

Edited to just focus on that tweet.

I said something similar on the last thread; his reaction could be genuine at sudden panic and distress over what he had done. I'm not sure I think OP coldly planned to murder Reeva, I think he most likely lost it in the heat of an argument. Once he realised what he'd done he would probably cry and scream. It doesn't mean he didn't kill her. I think too Masipa has attached undue weight to OP's reaction.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[jslk]

Sorry my last post there is quite unclear, it's been a long day! I seem to imply whether he killed her or not is in doubt, I know that this is not the case!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[AJ_DS]

Can you imagine if Aimee's boyfriend would do to her what OP did to Reeva… same circumstances, same evidence, same testimonies, etc…

I'm sure we would be in front of a premeditated murder verdict !!

 

[AlwaysShocked]

After today I just can't see this judge giving OP any jail time. Although it appears she made an error in her judgement according to many experts & professors I also don't see Nel appealing.

Why, if Nel genuinely believes that an error of law has been made by the judge, would he NOT appeal?

------------------------

Also, I found this while researching the judge:

"Masipa is assisted by two experts called assessors. Both of them, Themba Mazibuko and Jannette Henzen-DuToit, are advocates. They help the judge decide on questions of fact, but only she can rule on matters of law."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-judge-masipa/

 

[Interested Bystander]

Yes… very suspicious…. that 3:12AM is nowhere to be found… it was invented out of thin air and used in a material way to discredit key credible, reliable and corroborated witnesses.

Shame on you Masipa !!!!!!!!!

As a judge normally runs through the evidence associated with her decisions I feel she has let us down. I feel she has purposefully (and purposely) not done this. If she had, maybe it would have shown some huge gaps in her grasp of the event. It takes time but at least everyone would have known where she was coming from.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Why, if Nel genuinely believes that an error of law has been made by the judge, would he NOT appeal?

While everyone was listening, Nel was madly writing. I'm sure he's got something up his sleeve.

 

[Interested Bystander]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/oscar-pistorius-will-not-be-found-guilty-of-murder-104616981.html

“But a murder charge is out, for the time being anyway. The prosecution can appeal the decision and, if they do, Pistorius could still be convicted of murder, according to legal experts contacted by Yahoo Sports.”


I am not sure this is quite right. In South Africa the double jeopardy law is still in force, unlike in the UK. If he gets a conviction of CH I don't think he can then be charged with murder. Would one of our legal eagles please comment on this.

I think Nel would have to make some sort of challenge before the verdict is given. Is it even possible for him to do that.

 

[AJ_DS]

While everyone was listening, Nel was madly writing. I'm sure he's got something up his sleeve.

Interestingly enough, IIRC neither Roux nor Oldwage were seen taking notes… as if they knew what the outcome would be !!

 

[Carol70]

I am not surprised in the least at today's events and just confirmed what the country already knows....our justice system is a complete mess. Murders walk out of court every day of the week due to complete incompetence/lost dockets etc etc. I fear the repercussions from today may be huge...already seeing comparisons with Jub Jub being mentioned in more than one SA forum. (Black boy has accident and kills kids:murder 15 years and white boy guns down person: not guilty). South Africans are in an uproar..rightly so. I don't believe the judge has been bribed and thought she was impartial through out the trial...not really sure what's gone wrong.

I have always maintained that I believed OP version of events to be plausible and still do however admittedly, I was very surprised that the judge dismissed the dolus eventualis avenue. I do believe he intended to kill whoever, in his mind, he thought was behind that closed door even if it was fear/adrenalin etc induced but a human being is dead unnecessarily and was hoping justice would be served for the good of all South Africans but looks like it's just another day where the criminals win in this country. Maybe tomorrow will bring better news.

So glad to see familiar faces still around and hope all is well with everyone

 

[Harmony 2]

Mod note regarding tweets:
Please be sure the tweet is from an MSM source and include a link to the source...

Thanks

 

[AJ_DS]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/oscar-pistorius-will-not-be-found-guilty-of-murder-104616981.html

“But a murder charge is out, for the time being anyway. The prosecution can appeal the decision and, if they do, Pistorius could still be convicted of murder, according to legal experts contacted by Yahoo Sports.”


I am not sure this is quite right. In South Africa the double jeopardy law is still in force, unlike in the UK. If he gets a conviction of CH I don't think he can then be charged with murder. Would one of our legal eagles please comment on this.

I don't believe double jeopardy applies to an appeal… whose result may be a murder conviction or a new trial

 

[04009margaret]

No… van der Merwe never looked at the clock when she heard the bangs… the only thing she said was "around 3AM"

The only time she said was 1:56AM when she woke up, looked at the clock and heard a woman arguing loudly.

This 3:12AM time is a fiasco…

She made a few errors about the evidence during her judgement, quoted things wrongly.

 

[Reader]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/pistorius-arrives-murder-trial-judgement-day-072450180--spt.html#WB1dXQi

She then proceeded to absolve Pistorius of a lesser murder charge that requires a different concept of intention, known by the legal term 'dolus eventualis', which holds you responsible for the foreseeable consequences of your actions.

"Clearly he did not subjectively foresee this as a possibility that he would kill the person behind the door - let alone the deceased - as he thought she was in the bedroom," she said.

Legal experts said the state might question this ruling.

"I think the verdict on premeditated murder is acceptable and well reasoned and not a surprise," said Stephen Tuson, a law professor at Johannesburg's University of Witwatersrand.

"However, on dolus eventualis, I think the state would arguably be able to appeal," he added.

 

[Viper]

Viper,

You keep saying that CH can have 15 years + another 15 years for the gun charges…

I wish it would be so… but as we have seen so far, Masipa is very pro-OP to the extent of distorting and disregarding the evidence without any justifications… naturally, she does not want to get into the details and attempt to explain the inexplicable… very sneaky of her… that way it makes her errors on facts very difficult to point out for an appeal.

Its not over until it is over. Personally, I am willing to wait until tomorrow and I'm willing to wait until the actual sentences are handed down; Masipa may yet surprise everyone here. I doubt that OP is resting as easy right now as some of his Internet supporters seem to be, he is still up for 30 years in prison for all of his crimes.

I am also anxious to see if the State will appeal any of the verdicts or the sentences, as I know that they have a right and responsibility to do if either or both are unjust. But at this point, today, we really don't know how hard Masipa will come down on OP, she certainly has not set him free, as many here seem to mistakenly believe, at this moment.