Trial Discussion Thread #56 - 14.15.10, Day 45 ~ sentencing~

[sleuth-d-]

All the definitive ones. Which facts disprove Oscar's version? None of them.

op version: wood movement [could only have been the magazine rack - at the back of the toilet] caused him to shoot.
fact: first shot hit reeva standing close to the door.

 

[JuneBug67]

And Reeva's family have had to witness this day in and day out for eight months, and that's without the year they waited for it to come to trial. If OP is "broken", it's 100% his own doing, his own fault, even though his supporters would like people to believe it's the media's fault for writing mean things about him. But Barry Steenkamp is broken through no actions of his own. He's suffered a stroke due to the immense pain and heartache at losing his little girl under awful circumstances. One man is broken though his own actions, and one man is broken because of the other man's actions. Yet Masipa has compassion for only one of them.

I totally agree that that is the difference - I was going to make a similar point earlier and it is a very important one. The Steenkamps are completely innocent victims while Oscar and his family are victims of his own actions. He can still be a broken man though, and that brokenness is still relevant to this trial and the sentence.

 

[JuneBug67]

op version: wood movement [could only have been the magazine rack - at the back of the toilet] caused him to shoot.
fact: first shot hit reeva standing close to the door.

It was a very small room and where and how the magazine rack ended up where it was is somewhat speculative. Oscar's perceptions may have been impaired. His memory may be impaired. Maybe the sound was something completely different and his panicked mind heard 'wood moving' and later he wrongly attached that to the magazine rack. These are weak, speculative facts that fall in pile that Masipa classed as things that paled in importance to the truly definitive facts and issues.

 

[Cherwell]

I totally agree that that is the difference - I was going to make a similar point earlier and it is a very important one. The Steenkamps are completely innocent victims while Oscar and his family are victims of his own actions. He can still be a broken man though, and that brokenness is still relevant to this trial and the sentence.

Except he isn't "broken". We've seen him when he's turned off the acting, we've seen photos of him laughing over lunch, we know he's been out clubbing and trying to pick up women.

 

[Cherwell]

It was a very small room and where and how the magazine rack ended up where it was is somewhat speculative. Oscar's perceptions may have been impaired. His memory may be impaired. Maybe the sound was something completely different and his panicked mind heard 'wood moving' and later he wrongly attached that to the magazine rack. These are weak, speculative facts that fall in pile that Masipa classed as things that paled in importance to the truly definitive facts and issues.

Which are? come on, list them. You've been asked often enough.

 

[JuneBug67]

What is photo 55?

I'm going to get my hair done now. So in about two hours y'all can picture me as beautiful instead of just brilliant. Ha ha! I'm joking.

 

[Aika]

When I said accidentally I meant that the wiping of the phone might have happened through incompetence or lack of knowledge rather than just happenstance. For example he might have been trying to make targeted changes to files or folders but screwed up and deleted the entire contents. Or wanted to just wipe out some embarrassing but otherwise irrelevant things and not known how so just reset the whole thing. Or might have wiped out the phone trying to do an OS upgrade or other maintenance. We really don't know. I'm not trying to make excuses, and I agree that it is completely appropriate to view it with disapproval and suspicion, but I'm just not comfortable jumping to conclude the worst. We simply don't have enough information.

Well - we do know more than that. It was reported that SOME records were deleted and some were left intact and that is hard to achieve if you wipe you phone accidentally. He also changed the password - again, unlikely that was an accident. He's got a background in IT.

And the rest? I guess it’s easier for me to understand and identify with Reeva’s family really. Their background and way of living is closer to mine own. I guess I will never be able to truly understand people who shoot in restaurants, drive like madmen, walk around with their gun at a party (sorry, get together) lose their temper with others on regular basis, lie and kill their girlfriends.

But if you can - good on you.

 

[JuneBug67]

Which are? come on, list them. You've been asked often enough.

Seriously, I'm not avoiding. I just truly can't imagine the people who actually paid attention the first 85 times I brought the same issues up over and over are interested in hearing them again. The judgement is really clear. I don't know how to make it more clear. People who don't understand the very clear reasoning are not going to suddenly understand it because I say it again (and again and again).

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

Watching the Sky News round up with Kim's testimony. It's as upsetting now as it was this afternoon.

It was absolutely heart wrenching. I listened to every word she said, and watched how upset poor June and Barry were, and a few times I teared up too. It was absolutely unbearable.

And what was the absolute worst was Masipa's reaction after this emotional testimony - her chastising Nel for taking too long!!! FFS, it was an absolute disgrace!!

 

[Cherwell]

What is photo 55?

I'm going to get my hair done now. So in about two hours y'all can picture me as beautiful instead of just brilliant. Ha ha! I'm joking.

Yes, I thought it must take quite a while to do all those braids.

 

[JuneBug67]

yes, i thought it must take quite a while to do all those braids.

View attachment 61356

lol...

 

[lithgow1]

If you see this from their perspective Oscar made a terrible, fatal mistake and is a shattered person because of it. If the state and the public turn his horribly misplaced and fatal judgement that night into vicious domestic violence and a man trying to escape his murderous actions his family has a right and even obligation to be angry about that. To resist it without exception. That's what families do for an 'innocent' man or woman. It is that disconnect between what the facts say and what the state and public say that makes their position almost an impossible series of damned if you dos, damned if you don'ts. I think it's absurd to think they don't care about the loss of Reeva and her family's pain. Of course they do. But they're in a tough spot walking a tough line. And Nel IS an a$$ sometimes. I can see why she said that. I wasn't really bothered by what Oscar said to Gina Myers, and though I totally empathize with her discomfort, I think if you speak publicly about a trial and appear at a public trial you should not expect to be insulated from the environment of that trial, including the defendant.

The verdict and fact finding of Masipa and the assessors is thoroughly misunderstood in my view. It was NOT pick and mix. It was a logic and reason based verdict of elimination - if fact A is true and unopposed and supported by evidence then facts B and C cannot be true. It was perfectly reasoned on facts and arguments that were proposed and supported here by a few posters for months.

When I said accidentally I meant that the wiping of the phone might have happened through incompetence or lack of knowledge rather than just happenstance. For example he might have been trying to make targeted changes to files or folders but screwed up and deleted the entire contents. Or wanted to just wipe out some embarrassing but otherwise irrelevant things and not known how so just reset the whole thing. Or might have wiped out the phone trying to do an OS upgrade or other maintenance. We really don't know. I'm not trying to make excuses, and I agree that it is completely appropriate to view it with disapproval and suspicion, but I'm just not comfortable jumping to conclude the worst. We simply don't have enough information.

Fair enough re the seeing it from their perspective but from mine, having followed this trial from day 1, I've come to perceive them as an exceptionally unpleasant bunch of people who would do anything to protect their name and Pistorius's 'brand'. We are never going to agree as I firmly believe OP killed RS knowingly but that aside, how do you know they really care about the loss of 'Reeva' the person? If we're talking about what we 'know' and 'think', I think in their heart of hearts they probably resent her for causing this 'incident'. As for you being 'not really bothered by what Oscar said to Gina Myers', well there's not much i can say to that that wouldn't get me into trouble with the mods other than he blasted her friend to bits so in the interests of empathy for how she feels he should have kept his (insert expletive) mouth shut.

Re the facts of the case, far better sleuthers than I have taken you on about the one aspect that you seem to think clinches things (the crack/bullet hole) and shown that you are by no means holding an ace with that card so maybe they'll have the patience to do it again. All I'll say is there are many disquieting aspects of how Masipa shuffled the evidence but here's just one example - she stated in her judgement that Reeva would not have had time to scream so OP could not have known it was her in direct contradiction to Professor Sayman's evidence. Who do you think is more likely to be right there - the pathologist with years of experience or the journalist turned social worker turned lawyer turned judge? If you want to talk about logic and reason, my money's on the doctor.

Re the phone wiping, other's, aika in particular, have addressed that issue better than I can with the essential point that it is not up to the brother of the accused in a murder trial to take it on himself to wipe evidence, no matter how innocuous or embarassing it may have been.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

It was absolutely heart wrenching. I listened to every word she said, and watched how upset poor June and Barry were, and a few times I teared up too. It was absolutely unbearable.

And what was the absolute worst was Masipa's reaction after this emotional testimony - her chastising Nel for taking too long!!! FFS, it was an absolute disgrace!!

I agree, absolutely appalling! I thought she couldn't make anything worse, but she has. I get the distinct impression she has little respect for Reeva, I have my reasons why I think this is so.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Fair enough re the seeing it from their perspective but from mine, having followed this trial from day 1, I've come to perceive them as an exceptionally unpleasant bunch of people who would do anything to protect their name and Pistorius's 'brand'. We are never going to agree as I firmly believe OP killed RS knowingly but that aside, how do you know they really care about the loss of 'Reeva' the person? If we're talking about what we 'know' and 'think', I think in their heart of hearts they probably resent her for causing this 'incident'. As for you being 'not really bothered by what Oscar said to Gina Myers', well there's not much i can say to that that wouldn't get me into trouble with the mods other than he blasted her friend to bits so in the interests of empathy for how she feels he should have kept his (insert expletive) mouth shut.

Re the facts of the case, far better sleuthers than I have taken you on about the one aspect that you seem to think clinches things (the crack/bullet hole) and shown that you are by no means holding an ace with that card so maybe they'll have the patience to do it again. All I'll say is there are many disquieting aspects of how Masipa shuffled the evidence but here's just one example - she stated in her judgement that Reeva would not have had time to scream so OP could not have known it was her in direct contradiction to Professor Sayman's evidence. Who do you think is more likely to be right there - the pathologist with years of experience or the journalist turned social worker turned lawyer turned judge? If you want to talk about logic and reason, my money's on the doctor.

Re the phone wiping, other's, aika in particular, have addressed that issue better than I can with the essential point that it is not up to the brother of the accused in a murder trial to take it on himself to wipe evidence, no matter how innocuous or embarassing it may have been.

:goodpost:

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

I agree, absolutely appalling! I thought she couldn't make anything worse, but she has. I get the distinct impression she has little respect for Reeva, I have my reasons why I think this is so.

Please do share! I am curious to learn your view. I have suspected the same thing, but for the life of me, cannot think why???

 

[soozieqtips]

It was absolutely heart wrenching. I listened to every word she said, and watched how upset poor June and Barry were, and a few times I teared up too. It was absolutely unbearable.

And what was the absolute worst was Masipa's reaction after this emotional testimony - her chastising Nel for taking too long!!! FFS, it was an absolute disgrace!!

I just noticed that the Steenkamps own lawyer was tearing up when Kim was talking about how Reeva was everything to her parents, and how much they loved her. Very very sad to see the visible pain on people's faces (except for OP's family, who remained stony faced throughout).

On a side note, Alex Crawford just said that if they're wrapped up by Friday, we should get the sentence then, but we've all read there'll be a delay before it's handed down. Masipa shoud just put everyone out of their misery, stop the charade, and announce it on Friday. She knows what it is. No need to torture Reeva's family for a moment longer.

 

[ColonelMustard]

This is getting surreal…they must appeal this farce. Nel is ripping her apart but I honestly don’t believe it has any impact on the judge, she seems immune to any argument. This "expert" woman is simply unbelievable. Bring back Dixon with his pork chops .

That was Wollie.

(It's ok, it's hard to tell them apart.)

 

[lithgow1]

What is photo 55?

I'm going to get my hair done now. So in about two hours y'all can picture me as beautiful instead of just brilliant. Ha ha! I'm joking.

Sorry June but I'm picturing Elsa Lanchester in Bride of Frankenstein. And I'm joking too. Just don't go the route of today's social worker defence witness.

 

[Aika]

That was Wollie.

(It's ok, it's hard to tell them apart.)

LOL - thanks! Will never make that mistake again

 

[Marfa Lights]

What is photo 55?

I'm going to get my hair done now. So in about two hours y'all can picture me as beautiful instead of just brilliant. Ha ha! I'm joking.

Having trouble copying and pasting the actual image, but here are a couple of links:

See post #3 on this WS thread: WITNESS THREAD: Warrant Officer Barend Van Staden, Crime Scene Photographer

https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/crime_9.jpg

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...reamed-and-ran-into-the-bathroom-9251722.html