Trial Discussion Thread #58 - 14.17.10, Day 47 ~ sentencing~

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Aika said:
I’ve spent the weekend reading the legal experts and their interpretation of the HOA. The way I understand it they expect an appeal from Nel, unless OP faces a very hard sentence. So that’s positive.

If it’s true and OP might share a part of the prison with Radovan Krejcir - I say good luck to him. Krejcir is a nasty piece of work, a real psychopath. I speak Czech and I have followed his case over the years. IMO Krejcir’s case is a huge flop in SA justice system.

Krejcir was about to be arrested in the Czech Republic in 2005. He escaped with his wife and son and arrived to SA in 2007. He was immediately arrested (he was followed the by the Interpol and members of Czech secret service were at the airport). The Czech authorities expected he would be extradited within weeks - but SA refused (he applied for an asylum there).

So he has been living happily in SA ever since - 12 people "around him" have been killed in SA. He was sentenced to 11 years in the CR (fraud) in the mean time, but SA decided they wouldn’t extradite him. He was finally arrested in SA in november 2013, his trial is expected to start in june 2015.
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Hello

I was wondering if you have some links for the analysis? I haven't followed the case much lately.
 
Many people, especially black South Africa, have been tweeting and commenting about Barry Roux's inappropriate misreading of ubuntu for Oscar Pistorius.

Here's writer and commentator Eusebius McKaiser's take on ubuntu, prison and Oscar Pistorius
Let Oscar Learn True ubuntu In Prison


...And now Team Oscar have the audacity to appeal to ubuntu, which he was in short supply of that Valentine’s Day morning, in asking Judge Masipa to show mercy in the name of ubuntu? The irony is painful.

Last, it is worth pointing out that of course restorative justice has a place in our criminal justice system. We shouldn’t be bloodthirsty hooligans incapable of showing mercy, and only wanting revenge and retribution when punishing criminals. But the appeal to restorative justice on the part of Roux is unconvincing for two reasons. Firstly, restorative justice should be used mostly in minor criminal cases (like when someone steals Panados at the Cresta mall). Serious crimes should not routinely be dealt with in this way.

Secondly, restorative justice, and ubuntu, for that matter, aren’t incompatible with jail time. You can restore relations between Pistorius and the Steenkamp family while he is in jail. Roux wrongly implies that restorative justice and ubuntu, by definition, mean the court can’t lock up Pistorius. That’s false. Lots of great rehabilitation, and restoring of broken social bonds, can happen in prison. Judge Masipa shouldn’t be fooled by Roux’s attempt to pull a fast one.
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http://www.iol.co.za/the-star/let-oscar-learn-true-ubuntu-in-prison-1.1767313#.VETDtOfd2BB
 
mrjitty said:
Hello

I was wondering if you have some links for the analysis? I haven't followed the case much lately.
Click to expand...

It’s mostly the experts I follow on Twitter:

1. Prof. James Grant: https://twitter.com/CriminalLawZA

2. David Dadic - https://twitter.com/DavidDadic (his blog: http://whosyourdadic.com)

3. Tyrone Maseko: https://twitter.com/tyronemaseko

4. Brenda Wardle: https://twitter.com/BrendaWardle (Brenda Wardle has also her analysis on Youtube)

Some are saying the State should appeal regardless of the sentence (principle - error in law).

Hope that helps :)
 
mr jitty, could I ask you a question please. I understand that if OP gets a sentence of X years he can apply for parole after serving half that time. What I want to know is if he gets sentenced to, say, 8 years and half that sentence is suspended, does that mean he would then only have to serve 2 years, i.e. half the prison term, before the suspended 4 years come into play?
 
mrjitty said:
Hello

I was wondering if you have some links for the analysis? I haven't followed the case much lately.
Click to expand...

Forgot to say: they interpret certain things Nel said as "hints" - arguments for appeal. Nel said several times the crime was bordering on "dolus eventualis", called the suggested sentence "shockingly inappropriate" etc.
 
Can anyone confirm which house number Christo Menelaou lived at on 13/14 Feb 2013?
 
Aika said:
It’s mostly the experts I follow on Twitter:

1. Prof. James Grant: https://twitter.com/CriminalLawZA

2. David Dadic - https://twitter.com/DavidDadic (his blog: http://whosyourdadic.com)

3. Tyrone Maseko: https://twitter.com/tyronemaseko

4. Brenda Wardle: https://twitter.com/BrendaWardle (Brenda Wardle has also her analysis on Youtube)

Some are saying the State should appeal regardless of the sentence (principle - error in law).

Hope that helps :)
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Excellent, thank you for the list.

Just watching Legal Analyst Brenda Wardle now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGtIvH75YmI

She first mentions a case that the appeals court overturned from murder to culpable homicide. Roux uses that case in his sentencing HOA. It's a tragic circumstance - man stabs a woman to death and gets his murder conviction overturned by the Supreme Court from murder to culp homicide...and a 10 year sentence reduced to 7 years.

Dubious result, highly criticized and shows that life is far to cheap in SA and that the Supreme Court cannot also be relied on for 'justice'. Roux leans heavily on that precedent in his HOA.

Wardle just mentioned how Nel should have questioned Carice Viljoen about why the had black plastic bags in use to 'help' Steenkamp!! Oh yes...
 
K.T said:
Excellent, thank you for the list.

Just watching Legal Analyst Brenda Wardle now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGtIvH75YmI

She first mentions a case that the appeals court overturned from murder to culpable homicide. Roux uses that case in his sentencing HOA. It's a tragic circumstance - man stabs a woman to death and gets his murder conviction overturned by the Supreme Court from murder to culp homicide...and a 10 year sentence reduced to 7 years.

Dubious result, highly criticized and shows that life is far to cheap in SA and that the Supreme Court cannot also be relied on for 'justice'. Roux leans heavily on that precedent in his HOA.

Wardle just mentioned how Nel should have questioned Carice Viljoen about why the had black plastic bags in use to 'help' Steenkamp!! Oh yes...
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I believe that’s the video before the verdict - she’s got a new one after the verdict. On Twitter she seems quite certain the State will appeal. I certainly hope so.

Second video (after the verdict, error in law): http://youtu.be/GEopBZxGJdc?list=UUeNFgaPwYgNbthn6Xy_rM2A
 
Judgejudi said:
mr jitty, could I ask you a question please. I understand that if OP gets a sentence of X years he can apply for parole after serving half that time. What I want to know is if he gets sentenced to, say, 8 years and half that sentence is suspended, does that mean he would then only have to serve 2 years, i.e. half the prison term, before the suspended 4 years come into play?
Click to expand...

As far as I am aware Parole only relates to early release from prison.

So if the prisoner is eligible, then the prisoner can apply. When the prisoner may apply may depend on any conditions the judge sets in other jurisdictions - but I am not sure about SA.
 
Aika said:
Forgot to say: they interpret certain things Nel said as "hints" - arguments for appeal. Nel said several times the crime was bordering on "dolus eventualis", called the suggested sentence "shockingly inappropriate" etc.
Click to expand...

Yes I think he is speaking for the benefit of the judge on those occasions.
 
Just watched both videos. Thanks K.T and Aika. Wardle also said that the ammo possession was clearly in breach of the firearms control act, and that she felt Masipa misdirected by applying the law how she did, giving an example of an innocent person walking on the street who picks up a firearm and takes it to the police station. Well, OP was not on his way to hand in the illegal ammo, which was actually in his own safe in his own house. I wonder if Nel can appeal that decision as well?
 
mrjitty said:
As far as I am aware Parole only relates to early release from prison.

So if the prisoner is eligible, then the prisoner can apply. When the prisoner may apply may depend on any conditions the judge sets in other jurisdictions - but I am not sure about SA.
Click to expand...

Thank you for answering that. A poster asked me the question. To only serve 2 didn't make sense to me. I replied that I'm not a lawyer and not qualified to answer but that you could possibly could, and you did. Thanks again.
 
Sentence more than 2 yrs (not life)

  • court can fix its own choice of non-parole period, up to a maximum of 2/3 sentence
  • if no such period is stipulated in the sentence, eligible for parole after 1/2 of sentence
  • if 1/4 of sentence has been served and less than 5 years incarceration remains, parole board can refer a case back to court to consider conversion to a community sentence with supporting evidence
Sentence less than 2 yrs

  • eligibile for parole after 1/4 of sentence
Special sentence option available to courts

  • begins with prison
  • after 1/6 of the sentence automatically considered for correctional supervision by the parole board (no referral to court required)
  • 5 yrs max sentence
Sentence of correctional supervision, no imprisonment

  • can only be imposed “after a report of a probation officer or a correctional official has been placed before the court”
  • 3 yrs max sentence
(Parole is considered automatically at first eligibility, it does not need an application from the offender. If there is a partially suspended sentence, it is the direct jail term only which is used to work out the minimum detention period. If parole is granted, the partially suspended sentence does not replace the remainder of the direct jail sentence, they both run their full course.)
 
Aika said:
It’s mostly the experts I follow on Twitter:

1. Prof. James Grant: https://twitter.com/CriminalLawZA

2. David Dadic - https://twitter.com/DavidDadic (his blog: http://whosyourdadic.com)

3. Tyrone Maseko: https://twitter.com/tyronemaseko

4. Brenda Wardle: https://twitter.com/BrendaWardle (Brenda Wardle has also her analysis on Youtube)

Some are saying the State should appeal regardless of the sentence (principle - error in law).

Hope that helps :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links.

I agree completely that the State must appeal.

The verdict, followed by what the defence witnesses had to say during the sentence hearing, and very visible difference in Masipa's general attitude towards the State and the Defence have taken us to a state where we will probably be happy, even overjoyed if OP is handed a sentence of anything above 5 years. But that is really ridiculous. Even if the sentence is 15 years, the fact is that OP has been cleared of a murder charge, based on incorrect, often illogical interpretation of facts, and incorrect application of law. In cases involving situations where there are just two people in a house, one kills the other with no direct witness, it would be difficult to find clearer evidences than here of the survivor's guilt, specially if the person is a bit clever and it is carefully planned. State must appeal. Otherwise this case would be cited god knows in how many murder cases in future by defence lawyers.
 
eNCA @eNCAnews
Carl and Aimee Pistorius speak to #eNCA before their brother Oscar's sentencing. "This will be with him forever". #OscarSiblings

eNCA @eNCAnews
RT @karynmaughan: Aimee Pistorius speaks to #eNCA about her friendship with Reeva Steenkamp, "she was a very special person"

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan
Carl Pistorius on death threats made against his brother Oscar: "we take the threats seriously..." @eNCAnews
 
4MrsB said:
If OP is incarcerated ....there is no way he will be treated like the rest of the prisoners. Employees of the prison will be privately paid to get him whatever Uncle arranges, and to make darn sure he is not touched or messed with. . . . but it will still be prison & incarceration, which I hope is the sentence he'll receive.
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And that is why it needs to be a long sentence.
 
Robyn Curnow ‏@RobynCurnowCNN
Aimee Pistorius tells CNN 'it's never going to be over.' It's a 'phase in a journey that will never end' #oscarpistorius #sister #sentencing

Robyn Curnow ‏@RobynCurnowCNN
#oscarpistorius sister and brother speak to CNN at a family home - it's the first time Aimee is speaking to the media

Robyn Curnow ‏@RobynCurnowCNN
Aimee Pistorius to CNN on hearing about the shooting, 'It had to be a mistake because I know my brother and his fears.' #OscarPistorius
 
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