Trial Discussion Thread #58 - 14.17.10, Day 47 ~ sentencing~

[JuneBug67]

also interested to hear your take on the bath panel mr f...

1. looks like it would have made a fair bit of noise - which raises the question as to whether the bat on door was the only source of sounds [other than gunshots]

2. as a house owner, i would be aware of unusual damage of that nature, the event, etc. - if it had happened prior to that night [e.g. op had an explanation for the broken window]. op offered no explanation, as far as i am aware, for the panel. this makes me think it definitely happened on the night.

Here's an example where I think very differently. Yes, it's weird that the panel was bashed in. But Vermulen could not link it to anything and Oscar as far as I recall was never asked about it. So is the fair thing not to assume we don't have enough information to consider it relevant to the events that ended Reeva's life?

 

[Ncl1968]

I was awfully surprised Nel didn't ask about it either.

I'm also surprised that Nel was going for Murder 1 with a minimum of 25 years in prison, but when he gains a conviction for Culpable Homicide (two steps down) he doesn't ask for the maximum sentence. Did he not think OP deserved to be in prison for at least the minimum of Dolus Directus? Why wouldn't he ask for the max for CH when it's 10 years less that DD?

Nel actually said 10yrs min is aceptable to the state..
I think he fired a warning shot to the judge that anything less would mean trouble for the judge

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Let’s look at Oscar’s (rejected) (blood money) “gift” / “trust” to the Steenkamps.

R375 000 = $34,042 = £21,044

That’s right, folks, this is how much Reeva Steenkamp’s life is worth in PistoriusLand.

Pocket change for upper-crusters.

The filthy-rich Pistorius clan has deep financial interests in 120+ national and international corporations.

What does this insultingly paltry sum indicate?

We’re going to buy the Steenkamps’ silence, cut off any threat of a massively expensive civil suit (which we would no doubt lose) and we’re going to do it as CHEAPLY as possible.

I have a strong feeling that Uncle Arnie made Oscar eat the financial repercussions of this “tragic incident”, hence the selling off of all his assets. (Despite the prayerful, lovey-dovey united family front in public, can you imagine the hellacious, screaming family FIGHTS this murder has caused behind closed doors?) Uncle Arnie wasn’t about to be financially inconvenienced by Oscar’s f##kup or at the very least, keep it to a bare minimum. Uncle Arnie had no intention of putting any of the family money into the Steenkamp “trust” - Oscar was forced to offer only what funds he could personally cough up (SEE BELOW).

At any rate, the token amount was pure show, nothing more than baiting and taking advantage of already destitute victims in a calculated legal strategy.

So, what did Oscar and Co. lose? Mere pocket change.

To put the tiny amount of $34,042 (R375 000) into context - the median annual household income in the US is $51,939.

If the family had been smart, they would have made their “unconditional” “gift” seriously impressive, one that stung their bank account for at least a few seconds ... would have been more believable.

Oscar apparently sold a set of mag wheels with tires (R12 500) online via an ad dated July 24 2014.
The cobblestones / brickwork in the photos look exactly the same as those at Uncle Arnie’s house.
Email address matches the one on Oscar’s guns invoice.

http://www.gumtree.co.za/a-tyres-ri...r-wheels-with-tyres/1001162603340910036062909

 

[Ncl1968]

Nice gumtree find ..good work...i wonder if the wheels looked like the pictures or did a police photographer falsly take the pics...

 

[jay-jay]

Here's an example where I think very differently. Yes, it's weird that the panel was bashed in. But Vermulen could not link it to anything and Oscar as far as I recall was never asked about it. So is the fair thing not to assume we don't have enough information to consider it relevant to the events that ended Reeva's life?

It might not have been strong enough evidence for a court, but do you seriously think it happened at some other time? I don't.

As I've said time and time again, all of these things you can argue away, each and every one of them and you could do it in virtually every murder case if you really wanted to and if someone was that way inclined, but it's the culmination of all of these things all being present at the same time, along with Reeva's messages, etc, etc (I'm not going to list everything that's been said on this forum yet again) and just using a bit of common sense and logic, that adds up to one thing and one thing only.

 

[soozieqtips]

Thanks...I did look at those briefly a few days ago but they still seemed to me at the time to be missing a huge chunk of the early discussion. Some of those threads are dated as being started in early 2013 but the posts in them quickly switch to dates in 2014. I will look again when I have more time. It was a quick look that I had and I may have missed something.

BIB - I just checked, and I can't see any posts that have switched to the wrong dates? The General Discussion Thread #5 was started in 2013 and continued until the trial started in 2014. From the few posts I just looked at, no posting dates appear to switch; they just follow on from one year to the next. I'm pretty sure the mods wouldn't have deleted a ton of posts.

 

[soozieqtips]

Nel actually said 10yrs min is aceptable to the state..
I think he fired a warning shot to the judge that anything less would mean trouble for the judge

BIB - I don't think he fired a warning shot to the judge, because it might have ricocheted and hit him :smile:

 

[Cherwell]

Where I live in Sussex, we have HUGE bonfire night processions (main one is in Lewes) where figures of hate/ridicule are paraded through the streets and burnt on the bonfire .. I wonder if he might feature in that this year (if he's not already been done, that is .. I'll have to look it up on their webpage).

Who was it last year? Savile, I bet .... or was that the year before.

 

[geevee]

I take it the Pistorius family is not on your fave glow list, Lux et Veritas.

LOL That gave me a chuckle. Everytime something (else) awful comes out in this trial I can't help but to think to myself "Oh, Lux isn't going to like this at allll...".

 

[sleuth-d-]

Here's an example where I think very differently. Yes, it's weird that the panel was bashed in. But Vermulen could not link it to anything and Oscar as far as I recall was never asked about it. So is the fair thing not to assume we don't have enough information to consider it relevant to the events that ended Reeva's life?

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/big-interview-oscars-siblings-carl-and-aimee-speak-out

i think this is a slightly longer/different interview.
fair enough if they are still believing in oscar's story... from what i see here i believe it has been played down, in comparison to the uncle arnold post-verdict press conference.

just to repeat - re: their belief - that carl had op's phone. not by accident for a couple of hours, but for days.

 

[JuneBug67]

I know this was not aimed at me, but nonetheless....

No. It is not "devastating evidence". Nel did not address it for that reason....because it is not devastating evidence. He would hardly have led with it if it was.

The only evidence that can be depended on regarding the door is that the panel was prised out after the shots.

There is no scientific test that can be done to determine when the hole was made or any of the other dents. None.

There were two sets of sounds:

1) Gunshots
2) Unknown

If the gunshots and a bat banging a door sounded exactly the same to those who heard it, then there is no reliable way of determining which was which. None. Which means that there is precisely no logical or scientific reason to support the view that the bat sounds came after the gunshots. The only action we know happened came after the gunshots was the prising out of a panel....which made no sound.

You are making an awful lot of assumptions - that Reeva was actually in the toilet when she was doing most of her screaming, being one.

Your reasoning launches from assumptions and a number of flawed premises. Not good logic.

Based on your logic it's just about as reasonable to say the two sets of sounds were 1) Bat strikes 2) Unknown. Not that reasonable in my view. But anyway. As you know, the determination of which came first did not depend on sound, so your logical leap on the certainty that can or can't flow from that is irrelevant. I only addressed the screaming that was testified to occuring during and slightly after the second sounds. It's not an assumption that Reeva was shot through a closed door in the toilet. It's not an assumption that the state's case is that Reeva was shot at around 3:17 and that it was her screaming at that time. What is a wild assumption is that prying out a panel necessarily made no sound(!). This is exactly what I mean. There is virtually nothing you said here that is relevant and not at least slightly non-sensical.

Bottom line is that the state's testimony is that the door was broken through with a bat strike and that the wedged bat was levered to split apart the panels and break the door. Many, many people haves substituted their own judgement for that with no basis in reason. I'm still waiting for somebody, anybody to explain why their judgement should be accepted over the state's own witness, the defence witnesses and, yes, Pistorius' unchanged story on this aspect of events.

 

[WilliamMunter]

Pistorius' siblings recall tragedy (CNN interview)

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/10/20/intv-curnow-pistorius-siblings.cnn.html

Thanks Mr Fossil.

What a load of horse *advertiser censored*.

 

[JuneBug67]

It might not have been strong enough evidence for a court, but do you seriously think it happened at some other time? I don't.

As I've said time and time again, all of these things you can argue away, each and every one of them and you could do it in virtually every murder case if you really wanted to and if someone was that way inclined, but it's the culmination of all of these things all being present at the same time, along with Reeva's messages, etc, etc (I'm not going to list everything that's been said on this forum yet again) and just using a bit of common sense and logic, that adds up to one thing and one thing only.

What I believe to the bottom of my toes is that we really, really can't know. And really, really shouldn't assume. Vermulen could not link the bat or anything else to the damage. And again, Nel didn't even ask (I don't think). In my mind those things are both significant and truly should inform whether the damaged panel is factored in to our thinking.

 

[jilly]

Don't think I will sleep much tonight... I think if JM wants to avoid an appeal by either side then 7-8 years might do it, that way Roux won't risk the verdict becoming Murder and Nel will not risk a lower sentence. To be honest I think anything more than 2 years will show him that he and the Pistorians don't control the world. I know most of us want the minimum 10 years that Nel asked for but in reality I don't think that will happen at all. Also going by JM 'sympathy' towards OP it could easily be a 2 years suspended sentence.... We don't know and that's a fact but I really hope she makes up for the disappointing verdict by imposing an appropriate sentence. See you all in the morning for a massive :grouphug: and hope for justice for beautiful Reeva and her dignified and strong family and also to Mr Nel who has fought so damn hard for justice. His closing arguments really were heart wrenching

I would hope for at least 7 yrs with a suspended sentence. The mere fact that life as Oscar knew it, would be over for that period. Reporting to a probation officer and having someone dictate to him what he can and can't do; he's not going to adjust well to that. Totally beneath that entire family answer to anyone. It must have been really tough for them all to sit in that courtroom.

You might have a point about a 2 yr suspended sentence tho. It was Oscar's plan to go in the next Olympics in Brazil in 2016. In order to do that he has to train, so I can see Masipa giving him this amount of sentence so that he can get his life back together. I don't know if he would have any sponsors tho.

 

[toevlugsoord]

Has anyone said (and if so I'm sorry for missing it) how Tuesday's proceedings will go?
Are we talking a 10 minute thing where Masipa gives the sentence?

 

[JuneBug67]

BIB - I just checked, and I can't see any posts that have switched to the wrong dates? The General Discussion Thread #5 was started in 2013 and continued until the trial started in 2014. From the few posts I just looked at, no posting dates appear to switch; they just follow on from one year to the next. I'm pretty sure the mods wouldn't have deleted a ton of posts.

That thread is an example of what I mean...it starts in February 2013 and in just a few posts and still on the first page seems already to be in 2014. So it's a bit confusing.

 

[K.T]

Has anyone said (and if so I'm sorry for missing it) how Tuesday's proceedings will go?
Are we talking a 10 minute thing where Masipa gives the sentence?

It may be a longish reading, Judge Masipa will go through her reasoning about whatever sentence she decides. Different judges have different approaches but I assume she will cover the points she thinks are salient between defence and prosecution arguments. She may cover the triad of Zinn as a framework, meaning the accused history and circumstances, his punishment as a role in society, victim impact, relevant points etc.

Then the defense and/or prosecution may choose to immediately apply for appeal on judgement or sentence. More likely, as counsel have a short time to write submissions, they may use time to discuss with clients, analyse the judge's sentence statements and write an application - another date may be found to hear applications for appeal.

 

[jay-jay]

Who was it last year? Savile, I bet .... or was that the year before.

I've lost track since way back when they did George Doubleya and Bin Laden .. I think they did Lance Armstrong one year ..

 

[Lux et Veritas]

It might not have been strong enough evidence for a court, but do you seriously think it happened at some other time? I don't.

As I've said time and time again, all of these things you can argue away, each and every one of them and you could do it in virtually every murder case if you really wanted to and if someone was that way inclined, but it's the culmination of all of these things all being present at the same time, along with Reeva's messages, etc, etc (I'm not going to list everything that's been said on this forum yet again) and just using a bit of common sense and logic, that adds up to one thing and one thing only.

Exactly, JJ!! What I've been calling the "perfect storm" of implausible, improbable, impossible events - all in Oscar's favor.

 

[soozieqtips]

That thread is an example of what I mean...it starts in February 2013 and in just a few posts and still on the first page seems already to be in 2014. So it's a bit confusing.

If you're trying to find your own posts in certain threads, I think you can just do a search by username, and they should come up. One of the reasons (I assume) that the posting dates change to 2014 on the first page of GD part 5, is because the thread had no posts for months while everyone was waiting for the trial to start.


toevlugsoord
I asked the same question a few pages back, and apparently it won't be a 10-minute thing. Masipa is supposed to give her reasons for whatever sentence she hands down, so it could take an hour or so.