Trial Discussion Thread #59 - 14.21.10, Day 48 ~ sentencing~

[minor4th]

That's an interesting point.

"The Oscar Pistorius trial – and the language Apartheid it reveals

But when we consider what this really tells us about our country, the answer actually lies in language.

There was simply no question that this trial would be heard in any language other than English. Right from the very beginning, it was simply assumed by everyone that English it would be. And so it was proven. And yet, no one actually acting in this trial has English as their first language. Judge Masipa doesn’t; both Roux and Gerrie Nel seem to speak Afrikaans as a first language. And yet English it is.

It is a strange quirk of our country that very few people have English as their first language, but it is fast removing Afrikaans from our courtrooms. This means that very few people will be tried in the language that speaks to their heart. And while the proceedings are interpreted, we all know that that can come with associated problems. Involving paranoid schizophrenia, sign language, and booing."

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...e-language-apartheid-it-reveals/#.VEfsOlcgues

Thanks for looking that up. While all the participants may be comfortable speaking English, it still is no substitute for one's native and primary language. I think this quirk leads to some confusing results.

 

[Paul_1900]

BIB - are you sure you're not a native English speaker?? Or are you tailoring your evidence Mr Pistorius?? Joking aside, your writing skills are excellent. There are many many non-native English speakers on this forum, and I've never has any problems understanding their posts. Having members from all over the world is one of the reasons this forum is so interesting :smile:

WHEW, my heartbeat just start skipping . THANKS ! I take pride in your feedback, I am trying hard (and using LErg a lot btw ) to express myself nicely. But I was born and raised in Germany, just that I happily enjoy working in an international environment with fascinating different cultures

 

[jay-jay]

BIB - are you sure you're not a native English speaker?? Or are you tailoring your evidence Mr Pistorius?? Joking aside, your writing skills are excellent.

Seconded! :thumb:

 

[Estelle]

Originally Posted by RosieC View Post
I will try. Obviously a defendant can appeal a verdict if wrongly convicted. It is more difficult for the state to appeal a verdict. There is obviously an issue of double jeopardy. However if a judge makes an error on a matter of law, the state can appeal.

But as the 1982 Seekoei case held, if there is a competent verdict, the state cannot appeal. This means that if the charge was murder and the verdict was a lesser charge of culpable homicide, that is a competent verdict and the state cannot appeal the acquittal of the charge of murder.

Had Pistorius been acquitted altogether, the state could have appealed if there were an error of law. What James Grant is saying is that the state can petition the constitutional court to appeal against Seekeoi and then appeal the Pistorius verdict at the Supreme Court of Appeal.

Comment:

"The NPA will have to appeal this (incorrect) application of the law. Failure to do so will create problems for them in lower courts. To make it even worse, because such a judgment is not binding on other high court jurisdictions, you may have a situation where someone in, for example, the Western Cape, is convicted on exactly the same facts for which Oscar was acquitted, due to the different application of the law to the facts. That obviously offends the principle of equality before the law (s 9 of the Constitution). The SCA will have to make a ruling on this, in order for such a ruling to apply countrywide."

http://thelawthinker.com/judge-masipa-got-it-right-oscar-pistorius-and-the-intention-to-kill/

This is what worries me.

 

[Paul_1900]

Seconded! :thumb:

:blushing:

 

[Estelle]

And we wonder why misogyny and patriarchy are so prevalent in SA.

The courts help reenforce and institutionalize it.

The magistrate said Nkuna should date women his age.

“If you continue dating old women, or drinking too much, your level of sexual intercourse will drop and you won’t have babies. Let me give you advice that dating your relative will make you have kids with disabilities in life. Please date 16-valve girls, not skorokoros,” said the magistrate.

In the townships a “16-valve”, derived from the Volkswagen car engine, normally refers to a younger woman, while a “skorokoro” means an older vehicle.

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/magistrate-tells-horny-dog-date-16-valve-girls/

 

[Estelle]

Unless they electricity sockets in each cell, which isn't very likely, he might have a problem recharging it.

He will put on the charm and ask one of the warders to charge it for him.

 

[Ginro]

Was reading an article in the papers about OP's first night in the clink, and one commentater wrote that the irony is that now OP very well may wake up and find a burglar in his toilet.

 

[Susza]

thanks for posting, very informative

"There are also job opportunities, like working in the textile or furniture workshops or gardening."

I suggest they make him work there, then put a specially designed tag on the products . . it would sell like crazy I'm afraid. So there is ONE of MANY great ways he can " pay back to society" :crazy:

Only textile, furniture, gardening - no TAILORING???:gaah:

 

[Estelle]

bbm

No, I never would think, Samantha hates OP. She loves him too much and therefore wept as a witness, overwhelmed by her unhappy (dangerous) love. He is offended and hurt and doesn't understand his blame to the separation. IMO

IMO just because she cried as a witness, does not mean that she is still in love with OP. I think those tears came when testifying and she had to remember the "good old days" when she was in love with him. Those tears were associated with regret that things had not turned out the way she had wanted them to.

 

[Susza]

So what's the betting that OP still has it with him?

Well, Estelle, let's hope the General* is doing his job as well as he promised: no privileges for OP.

* Wasn't this how prison gang leaders are generally called... Remember: the State's prison expert witness (sorry, forgot his name) informed Roux that ALL the gang leaders are called like this and lots of the people in court were laughing.

 

[Susza]

WHEW, my heartbeat just start skipping . THANKS ! I take pride in your feedback, I am trying hard (and using LErg a lot btw ) to express myself nicely. But I was born and raised in Germany, just that I happily enjoy working in an international environment with fascinating different cultures

Haha, LEO is a good friend of mine, too!

 

[Lux et Veritas]

HI Susza and all you great members of WS,

heartfelt thanks for the warm welcome !!

I was reading here since April . . finding huge support and so many answers to so many questions. But feeling I would not be able to contribute in an adequate way - partly due to not being a native english speaker - and part of me expecting the trial to be over soon. Oh yeah, what a very bad guess .

This forum is very unique in it's fairness and openess to all minds and opinions. And I always felt a sense of respect and dignity that is rare to find. People expresses so much compassion and true to heart desire to understand . . . very impressing. And I am glad to have joined at last !

:heartbeat:

Paul, your English is GREAT!

 

[foxbluff]

The thing that bothers me the most is that apparently at least one of the assessors also agreed with her. Am I correct that the two of them had authority also in this judgement and if they wanted to over rule?

I don't know for sure, Luv, but it was my understanding that in the rendering of the verdict at least two of the three had to agree.

On sentencing, I read that it was up to the Judge whether she conferred with the assessors. Since the assessors were present in Court on Judgment Day, I assumed she conferred with them.

However, it's not clear to me whether the assessors had an actual vote on what Judgment would be imposed.

 

[Paul_1900]

The magistrate said Nkuna should date women his age.

“If you continue dating old women, or drinking too much, your level of sexual intercourse will drop and you won’t have babies. Let me give you advice that dating your relative will make you have kids with disabilities in life. Please date 16-valve girls, not skorokoros,” said the magistrate.

In the townships a “16-valve”, derived from the Volkswagen car engine, normally refers to a younger woman, while a “skorokoro” means an older vehicle.

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/magistrate-tells-horny-dog-date-16-valve-girls/

Hi Estelle

thanks for posting this article. SHOCKING to say the least, but somehow not unexpected from what I have read about women in SA myself. Came across an article today about a lawyer arguing that rape - on a minor ! - wasn't really rape as the guy had used his finger, not his penis . . .


off topic . . but . . I am always interested in a broader view. Some time ago there was big headlines about womens rape in India, the one case in 2012 that caused such an outrage of public - she was given the name " Nirbhaya" .
Having worked with many Indians and being treated always in a very respectful and caring manner I was struggling to understand what was going on in that country. (Aware that my POV might be somewhat eurocentric and lacking deeper knowledge of the country ). To date I have a lot of hints to help me understand and develop some ideas, but even the wifes of my Indian colleagues, sharing their daily experiences, couldn't help me understand it in a deeper sense.

It's something about macho culture, prevailing cast system (which has some good aspects as I learned to understand !) and not viewing women as equal for centuries - obviously so deeply routed in these societies, and so freaking " normal" in their daily lives that it can make a womans live like hell every single day.

 

[Estelle]

"My attacker was jailed. Do I have to be grateful?

As a female victim of male violence, things could always be worse. But despite what society and the media tell us, there are no “small mercies”, and we don’t have to be grateful."

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/10/my-attacker-was-jailed-do-i-have-be-grateful

There is some reference to OP in this article which prompts my question: "Should the Steenkamps now feel grateful that OP is in prison?.

 

[Errrr]

No visiting times after 2pm either, according to the signs. Although I wonder if exceptions will be made for OP?

Much as I can't stand him, I hope (for society's sake) that being in jail will humble him somewhat. It will be a whole new life for him inside, and I hope he doesn't waste his less-than-a-year's sentence fretting and seething about the "injustice" he has suffered. I did read that anger management classes were "offered", which means OP has a choice whether or not to attend. That shouldn't be the case. It should be compulsory, given that his anger and aggression was so prevalent in the months leading up to Reeva's death. He has a chance to change, but I wonder if he's just too arrogant to take it.

Since it was a terrible accident he wouldn't be required to take Anger Management. Since it was caused by his paranoia I hope people keep him locked securely in his room at night forever more wherever he sleeps. Sleeping in a house with this guy could be fatal.

 

[Estelle]

June Steenkamp said she intends to establish a refuge to help abused women, which she said was something her daughter wanted to do. Steenkamp said she had plans to name the organization The Reeva Foundation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...l_n_6029050.html?&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000022

 

[Paul_1900]

Only textile, furniture, gardening - no TAILORING???:gaah:

Susza,

but textile IS almost same as TAILORING . . it is SO funny somehow :laugh:

I am working as a technician in garment manufactoring industries, and it would be a complete "NO GO" to buy garments from prison, i.e. forced labour, unless you knew its a special program or some sort of where you can rest assure that workers are treated fairly.

On a serious note I appreciate people can do some useful work when incarcerated.

 

[Paul_1900]

Paul, your English is GREAT!

ahem, just to notify . . I'm a female. Paul is the name of my very beloved grandpa born in 1900. He showed true love to my grandma. Visible in photos and very touching postcards he wrote from a prison camp in WWll

THANKS LUX