Trial Discussion Thread #59 - 14.21.10, Day 48 ~ sentencing~

[Estelle]

Is there a silver lining in the culpable homicide verdict?

Before the verdict was read, there were many sleuthers that were concerned that OP would be a flight risk if a murder charge had been handed down. He wouldn't have stuck around for the sentencing phase of the trial. If that was the case, the state would have had to deal with extradition, etc.

We now know where OP is....in prison.

If the PT does appeal and WIN, his verdict could be increased from CH to murder and subsequently, his sentence would be increased. There would be no worries then of OP fleeing.

Just 13 days left now for the PT to make a decision.

My concern is this: If the State appeals, would OP then request bail again and be able to leave the prison or would they keep him there? How long would an Appeal take? I would consider him a flight risk then at least to Mozambique by road and they do not have an extradition agreement with South Africa.

 

[foxbluff]

I am sure this has been posted somewhere in these threads already but I'm seeing it for the first time and am interested in reading word for word:
South Africa: OSCAR PISTORIUS FULL JUDGMENT (PDF)

BBM - Same here, Minor !!

I had asked here yesterday if we could expect a copy to be published. There are few things I like better than having images of original documents in a case. Thank you.

 

[jay-jay]

I found this whole "storyline" of mitigation by Roux laughable & disrespectful to the audience. For several reasons:

A) just the fact he fabricates this "story" of being on a train (or some public transportation) and bumping into attorney who recommends the book on Ubuntu to Roux . . . and then Roux claiming to then go out & purchase book, and during the "Trial of the Century" & the most important trial of Roux's career - at the very peak of it, Roux has extra time on his hands to read a new book. No way...that didn't happen. Please Roux: just talk about the philosophy behind Ubuntu, don't insult us by creating this serendipitous storyline of how this came to be. Please! That did not happen. (Nel had to chuckle about that I'm sure, knowing neither one of them would be finding time in their schedule to even have a meal with their families, much less, read a book suggested by a stranger on a train.)

B) Do not use Ubuntu as a reason for saving Oscar from any time behind bars. It is insulting to Reeva, as Oscar's treatment of Reeva and reason for her life being cut so dramatically short is quite the opposite of the Ubuntu philosophy and way of treating people.

C) Ubuntu places a very high value on the life of a human being. It entails civilized dialogue and tolerance. Harmony, dignity, respect for others and compassion. And "does not favor victory for the most powerful".

So Roux argues Ubuntu for OP, knowing he showed nothing of the sort for Reeva. Not only does OP not embrace this philosophy, he does most everything in his life quite OPPOSITE to it. I don't pretend to understand Ubuntu and it's meaning, but I have read enough to feel, IMO, it's not appropriate to argue it for OP and his crime.

BBM .. I thought exactly the same thing when he started coming out with that story .. I just thought to myself 'what a load of old claptrap, that never happened!' .. and if he can do that about that one thing, then there were many other times during that trial where he did that same thing too. He must think people were born yesterday. Completely agree with everything else you've said in your post.

 

[Susza]

I am fairly worldly having travelled to over 110 countries by now so I do not think we can generalise about men. IMO there are men in every country who abuse and murder women but some countries seem to have more than others. I have been to India twice and have found the men that I met as I stayed in local homes very respectful of their wives and me but they were middle and upper class men. However, when I was alone in Delhi, I was once near the station and felt terrified as I was surrounded by men with no women in sight. It was just the way they looked at me - a woman on her own. I could not wait to get out of Delhi. I have always wanted to visit South Africa but this case has put me off completely. I had thought Cape Town was safer than Joburg but the Dewani case changed my perception.

BBM - I experienced the same.
In Delhi, I went to a police station as my backpack had been stolen. Four officers, two of them lying on field beds behind their office desks, looking at me in a way I can't describe. I immediately realized it would be better to get out of there as quickly as possible...
My trip to SA was worse: I hardly ever felt safe and so, unfortunately, I have no actual plans going back there.

 

[Susza]

double post

 

[soozieqtips]

BBM .. I thought exactly the same thing when he started coming out with that story .. I just thought to myself 'what a load of old claptrap, that never happened!' .. and if he can do that about that one thing, then there were many other times during that trial where he did that same thing too. He must think people were born yesterday. Completely agree with everything else you've said in your post.

BIB - me too! I was willing Nel to jump up and bark "what train?", "what attorney?", just to see Roux get flustered. Roux shares many characteristics with OP.

On another note, this is an excerpt from the following article. Interesting, and sadly true.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...steenkamp-killing-has-sidelined-male-violence

"It is possible to ask what this killing, and the subsequent meting out of “justice” to the man responsible, tells us about all sorts of things. Except the one thing it really does tell us about: the worth of a woman’s life.

The first BBC bulletins on the day of the Oscar Pistorius sentence chose to talk immediately to the corporation’s sports correspondent. The urgent questions were about how long it would be before Pistorius could compete internationally and whether he would be able to train in prison. Sport is more important than justice for women who are raped or killed, whether by way of murder or manslaughter".

ETA - Delhi. I was in a taxi on my own when the driver said he liked my skirt and leant over and started fondling my leg! I yelled at him and jumped straight out into the middle of traffic. Luckily it was crawling, but I didn't think to look.

 

[Reader]

I don't know if she believed him. In this case she seemed to be all about rehabilitation because of what Oscar was. From the wrist slap she gave, I think she held her nose when she gave this sentence.
She managed to misinterpret the evidence to fit her verdict and uttered almost the minimum for sentence.

If that was her reason for this very flawed judgement and sentence IMO she will be sorely disappointed. OP is too full of hubris and he and his family do not believe he needs to change. Instead everything has been 'unfair' to poor OP.

He really needed a long enough sentence that he would have time to sit and think about who he is and how he got there, if he is even capable of that at this late date.

Oscar. Reeva. What a horrific waste of two lives.

The guy obviously has serious freakin issues.

When he gets out of prison, I can see him going one of three ways:


1) With zero personal prospects of fully-independent self-sufficiency, become a permanent ‘ward’ of and dependent on the familial generosity of Uncle Arnie, work quietly for the family businesses and/or special projects, shun the public.

2) Defiantly ditch any and all pretense of efforts towards reform and rehabilitation, gravitate toward his underworld buddies (after all, as a killer ex-con, he’d fit right in) and resume his wild, playboy, adrenaline-fueled lifestyle. With no athletics career to anchor him with social and financial security and the glories of his old life long gone, reviled as a social pariah, what would he have to lose? He would fully embrace his official, ex-con ‘Bad Boy’ image and it wouldn’t be pretty.

3) A combination of 1 and 2, the “best” of both worlds. The security of the Pistorius home with frequent, drunken, disorderly ventures to the wild side. (Wonder how long Uncle Arnie would put up with that?) I’m not sure who’s the worst influence on OP - his pathologically coddling, enabling family or his high-flying, dubious-at-best, mafia-esque ‘associates’?

I take that back - there’s a fourth option.

4) Actually get his sh#t together, do a total 180 and re-invent himself in a completely new direction. Turn his self-inflicted losses and horrific, destructive choices into creative tools to share, create, give back and do good. Not only a new-and-improved Oscar, but a genuinely regenerated Oscar. (Hey, way stranger things have happened.) He could actually be an even GREATER inspiration than he was before. What could be more powerful than learning cautionary tales from a transformed man who’s experienced the extreme highs and lows of physical disability, elite sports, mental/emotional issues, prison and conquered his demons? This would indeed be a spectacular success story - the old sports hero Oscar Pistorius would pale in comparison.

What odds do I put on these four options?

1) 33%
He’ll likely go this route initially, if only for public consumption and to lick his prison ‘wounds’. Eventually, though, the sedate, straight-and-narrow lifestyle would chafe him and he would rebel to 2) or 3).

2) 33%
This lifestyle might be extremely tempting to him. As a convicted killer in a nation and world that hates him, he’d think, f### it, might as well go bad all the way. This rough, dangerous crowd represents POWER and STATUS - exactly what he lost, exactly what his arrogance craves.

3) 33%
Equally tempting. He wouldn’t want to lose the Pistorius financial security and family social status but his aggressive, narcissistic, Type-A, thrill-seeking personality (not modified or corrected) would demand he also seek excitement and danger by attempting to re-capture as much of his previously reckless, hedonistic lifestyle as he could outside family confines. The ‘Good Boy’ and the ‘Bad Boy’ would be at continual war.

4) 1%
This should be his #1 choice but I’m afraid Oscar may be too far gone mentally, emotionally and socially to be capable of this daunting option. It would be a massively long haul - years in the effort - and I’m not sure he’s got it in him to conquer his social stigma, to win hearts and new public respect as a truly reformed, better man. It would be a terrific long shot but not impossible.

Great post!

I pick door #3.

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

IMO just because she cried as a witness, does not mean that she is still in love with OP. I think those tears came when testifying and she had to remember the "good old days" when she was in love with him. Those tears were associated with regret that things had not turned out the way she had wanted them to.

I think those tears came from remembering the devastating pain of when she found out he was cheating on her. I think this because I had a fiance once who cheated on me, and I still cry about the pain it caused, but not for him, and not about regret that things didn't turn out the way it did. MOO

 

[foxbluff]

Her primary language is Northern Sesotho. English is her second language. And she probably speaks/understands Afrikaans as well.

I was about to logoff when I saw your name here. Couple of questions if you don't mind my asking.

Can you tell me what "presenter" means? I'm thinking it has something to do with being a news reporter.

Also, I once saw where OP was referred to as being an Afrikaan. Then someone said he's not, because he's white. ??? Wouldn't he be considered Afrikaan because that's his native land?

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Thank you, Lux. Here I was thinking I was the only one here that was feeling sad for the loss of Oscar in addition to Reeva.

I'm sure I've never seen more keenly beautiful and eloquently expressed feelings put into words on a discussion board. (Hopefully I'll be able to find the print button in spite of slightly blurred vision...)

Thank you, Lux.

Thank you, Fox.

 

[mrjitty]

BIB The lethal capability of his gun was known to him when he took it and shot 4 times through a locked toilet door IMO.

Agreed

This is where i feel a number of commentators have adopted an impossibly high standard of proof for the case.

As someone who has been trained with guns, I know about their lethal capability.

So when I intentionally shoot someone multiple times - this knowledge doesn't miraculously disappear.

In my view, the correct interpretation of the law does not require that I stroke my chin and ponder the lethal capability of my AR15 before proceeding to shot someone.

I intrinsically know that, and proceed in spite of the danger.

Indeed the whole reason to chose a powerful gun for self defence is precisely because you know that it can stop and kill a human.

And furthermore, any person specifically keeping a gun at hand in their bedroom for self defence has obviously considered these matters and deliberately chosen a lethal weapon.

 

[Estelle]

Susza,

but textile IS almost same as TAILORING . . it is SO funny somehow :laugh:

I am working as a technician in garment manufactoring industries, and it would be a complete "NO GO" to buy garments from prison, i.e. forced labour, unless you knew its a special program or some sort of where you can rest assure that workers are treated fairly.

On a serious note I appreciate people can do some useful work when incarcerated.

Because there was already a mention of "textiles" in the first post, when the original person posted this about "tailoring" I thought she/he was playing on words and that he/she was referring to the tailoring of evidence that OP had done! I thought to myself that OP could give lessons about how to tailor as he was an expert at it!

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

I was about to logoff when I saw your name here. Couple of questions if you don't mind my asking.

Can you tell me what "presenter" means? I'm thinking it has something to do with being a news reporter.

Also, I once saw where OP was referred to as being an Afrikaan. Then someone said he's not, because he's white. ??? Wouldn't he be considered Afrikaan because that's his native land?

Hey foxbluff,
Are you sure you got the word presenter correct? Presenter is not a word in Afrikaans. However, present is - it means gift. Presenteer means present - as in presentation. Can you send me a link to where you saw/read this word so I can try to figure it out with context?

Yes, the statement that white people are not Afrikaans is absolutely incorrect! The white people is South Africa are probably 50% who speaks Afrikaans as their first language (of whom ALL speak English also, because English as a second language is mandatory in Afrikaans schools). Of those who speak English as their first language, only few know Afrikaans because the Afrikaans language is optional to learn as a second language in school.

From his accent, I do believe that Oscar is English, but he can probably speak/understand Afrikaans as well. Afrikaans speakers have distinct English accents that are different from native English speakers - you can hear the difference between say the Myers' accent and Nel's/Roux's accents.

Here is a chart that shows the distribution of white South Africans by province and first language:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_white_South_Africans

Hope this helps!

 

[mrjitty]

After the DT had rested, I posted a synopsis of OP's defense from start to finish. It's alarming to reread it now knowing the verdict. How and why Masipa accepted this wishy-washy, three defense nonsense is beyond me.



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Discussion-Thread-48&p=10758155#post10758155

great post!

yes it is hard to imagine how on earth such a defence was successful.

Anyone who has knowledge of criminal procedure knows that Roux has structured his pleadings and EiC in anticipation of the accused's testimony.

For the accused to produce a new defence in Cross Examination suggests that OP had not shared those matters with Roux in advance, or they had agreed he was supposed to say something different.

Whoops!

What is so weird about the verdict is it would have just made more sense for Masipa to have held he did intend to fatally shoot the "intruder" but did so in self defence.

Then it would have been appeal proof.

 

[lithgow1]

BBM - I experienced the same.
In Delhi, I went to a police station as my backpack had been stolen. Four officers, two of them lying on field beds behind their office desks, looking at me in a way I can't describe. I immediately realized it would be better to get out of there as quickly as possible...
My trip to SA was worse: I hardly ever felt safe and so, unfortunately, I have no actual plans going back there.

I was the 'victim' of an attempted mugging in India on my first day in the country! It was in Delhi too, and it was two women and I'm a man. While one was trying to get money from me another wrapped her sari round my head and face and while I was trying to get it off they both tried to get into my day pack. I started shouting and within seconds a crowd of what seemed like 50 people had gathered and then a couple of the men started hitting the women and some old glass jars fell out of their saris and smashed on the footpath and meanwhile I was trying to get these guys to stop slapping the women ... it was just horrible. And the irony of it all was all they had managed to grab out of my bag was part of the paper wrapping around a book I had just bought - India - A Travel Survival Kit. Totally OT to OP I know but with all this talk of fear in Delhi I could neither stop the flashback nor resist telling the story.

 

[foxbluff]

Thank you, Fox.

awww... that's so nice, Lux.

I've noticed your writing talent (as I feel sure everybody has) right along. Your ability to write great, well worded posts (one right after the other) and all interesting, articulate, and imaginative... leaves no doubt about your abilities. Then there's that thing where you turn a pen into a sword and make mincemeat out of your targets...

Being used to seeing you wield that sword, I was surprised when you opened up to us with a poetic turn that darn near ripped my heart out.

Simply put, you're an excellent writer.

 

[minor4th]

I don't know for sure, Luv, but it was my understanding that in the rendering of the verdict at least two of the three had to agree.

On sentencing, I read that it was up to the Judge whether she conferred with the assessors. Since the assessors were present in Court on Judgment Day, I assumed she conferred with them.

However, it's not clear to me whether the assessors had an actual vote on what Judgment would be imposed.

She said the judgment was unanimous

 

[jilly]

BIB - that's just describing Reeva in general, like saying OP enjoyed running and was close to his family, for example. The point was that Masipa didn't once talk about what society had potentially lost due to Reeva's death. She could have eventually been a human rights lawyer for all we know. We know she was interested in talking out about abuse against women (ironic, given what happened), so she may have gone on to helping other victims of DV escape abusive partners. Reeva's killing meant she was forever unable to do anything for her family or for society. And her general description of Reeva 'living life to the full' and being 'good in front of a camera' still came across as patronising and shallow, when taken as a whole, especially considering how much time she gave to OP's 'contribution' to society and the effect the killing had on him!

You're absolutely right.

 

[minor4th]

great post!

yes it is hard to imagine how on earth such a defence was successful.

Anyone who has knowledge of criminal procedure knows that Roux has structured his pleadings and EiC in anticipation of the accused's testimony.

For the accused to produce a new defence in Cross Examination suggests that OP had not shared those matters with Roux in advance, or they had agreed he was supposed to say something different.

Whoops!

What is so weird about the verdict is it would have just made more sense for Masipa to have held he did intend to fatally shoot the "intruder" but did so in self defence.

Then it would have been appeal proof.

Completely agree except I'm not so certain it would be appeal proof since OP said many times he did not "want" to shoot the intruder and did not intend to shoot or kill anyone.

OP took a very straightforward defense of putative private defense and turned it on its head with his testimony.

Masipa obviously disregarded his testimony that he did not intend to shoot at the perceived intruder, but she didn't go so far as to say he believed he was shooting lawfully in self defense. <--- Oscar made it difficult to have a totally coherent judgment.

 

[minor4th]

Agreed

I think he just messed up on the stand.

I doubt Roux planned it that way.

I think Roux was as surprised as anyone when his client seemingly changed his defense mid-trial, and when Roux had no opportunity to even speak with him about it.