Trial Discussion Thread #59 - 14.21.10, Day 48 ~ sentencing~

[Estelle]

Oscar Pistorius was heard weeping inconsolably during his first night in prison

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/10/23/broken-oscar-sobs-himself-to-sleep

I don't believe it. I read another media report which said OP slept soundly.

Aaaah...I just read this in the Times article:

"It's no picnic. Once the doors shut that's it. Other than a little grill bar window next to the cell door, through which to talk, there's no other way of communicating at night. When you talk from your cell you have to scream. For people to have heard him crying, it would have been very loud."

I bet he was putting on an act. Crying loudly through that with grill window open or shut? I bet he was screaming like a woman then!

 

[soozieqtips]

I don't believe it. I read another media report which said OP slept soundly.

I read that report too, so one of these 'sources' is tailoring their evidence. I also read that his cell measures 2m x 3m, which is quite a lot bigger than the toilet Reeva was killed in. Hopefully he'll think about that when the lights go out.

 

[Estelle]

Thanks. I posted his tweets in my post you quoted..he said that the state can appeal..I actually was looking for feedback on that. I guess if he is a law professor then he must be correct...at least I hope so.

I think you posted Chris Greenland's tweets. Maybe you could re-post them here.

 

[Estelle]

I've only read through page 10 of 73 and I've already come across factual errors.

In the very beginning of the judgment on page 2: "The house with a double storey with the main bedroom on the first floor, the accused slept in the main bedroom which had en suite facilities..."

Umm, the main bedroom was on the second floor. Did she not remember all the nonsense regarding the ladder? How OP attempted to justify thinking an intruder would enter his small bathroom window on the 2nd floor by saying workers left a ladder out and unsecured?! Even though it was argued there would have been an easier entry route for an intruder like the broken window on the 1st floor or his balcony door that was wide open?? snipped.....

I guess you live in USA where you number floors differently eg ground floor is 1st Floor in USA and 1st Floor is 2nd Floor in USA.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I've only read through page 10 of 73 and I've already come across factual errors.

In the very beginning of the judgment on page 2: "The house with a double storey with the main bedroom on the first floor, the accused slept in the main bedroom which had en suite facilities..."

Umm, the main bedroom was on the second floor. Did she not remember all the nonsense regarding the ladder? How OP attempted to justify thinking an intruder would enter his small bathroom window on the 2nd floor by saying workers left a ladder out and unsecured?! Even though it was argued there would have been an easier entry route for an intruder like the broken window on the 1st floor or his balcony door that was wide open??

And then on page 10 under common cause facts: "- that the deceased sustained a wound on the right thigh, a wound on the upper left arm, a head injury and a wound on the web of the fingers"

First of all, it was her hip bone that was hit and shattered, not her thigh. But more importantly, it wasn't her upper left arm, it was her right. It was the arm Mangena testified at length about when he described the defensive position Reeva was in as she tried to protect her head from all those damn bullets that kept coming through the closed door. It was the arm Wollie testified at length about regarding the wood splinters around the gunshot wound because it was the DT's case that she was reaching for the handle to open the door.

I realize these are minor errors, but they are errors nonetheless. Masipa and her assessors had a month to deliberate and prepare this judgment. Between the three of them, none of them caught these mistakes? Such carelessness truly makes one wonder how competently they looked at and considered all the evidence.

As far as I recall it was a two storey house comprising Ground Floor and First Floor. In the Uk the first floor is one level above the ground floor and I am sure the same terminology is used in SA.

 

[Estelle]

WOMEN ANGRY AT LENIENT SENTENCE

1. ANCWL spokeswoman said they are calling for the national prosecution to appeal against this sentence to do it for our society.

2. The National Freedom Party Youth Movement said Pistorius’s sentence should have been a life sentence. “We all know that Pistorius shed crocodile tears each time he had a chance to do so, when he knew exactly that he murdered an innocent woman who had a bright future ahead of her because of his insecurities".

3. The IFP Women’s Brigade welcomed the sentence but said Pistorius should not get parole. “He should serve the sentence associated with such a crime before he can be released. Those guilty of killing must… serve their full sentence without parole.”

http://www.iol.co.za/dailynews/news/women-angry-at-lenient-sentence-1.1768893#.VEhN9Vcgues

 

[AW2B]

I think you posted Chris Greenland's tweets. Maybe you could re-post them here.

No..I posted Grant's tweets..but I do confuse the two sometimes.. :blushing:

Here are his tweets..he was referring to an article that claimed the state will not be able to appeal:

James Grant @CriminalLawZA · 7h
To clarify - the case of Seekoei 1982 AD does not restrict the state's right to appeal against a decision of law "in favour of an accused".

James Grant @CriminalLawZA · 9h
... s319 relates to "reservation of law" questions - which require acquittal on charge and competent charge - Seekoei is authority for this.

James Grant @CriminalLawZA · 9h
... State's right to appeal arises from s310 of CPA where a decision of law is made "in the accused's favour"; different to s 319...

James Grant @CriminalLawZA · 9h
Respectfully, another mistake of law to claim that state cannot appeal as stated in: "Oscar verdict ‘a done deal’

----------------------

Here is the link to that article:
http://www.dispatchlive.co.za/gen/oscar-verdict-a-done-deal/

 

[Interested Bystander]

FYI - Grant us not a judge or practicing attorney. He is a law professor.

Only as a point of interest, Grant left his University job a couple of days ago to go into practice but as you say he is definitely not a Judge and his recent opinion was as a Prof at a Uni.

 

[OZe]

Oscar. Reeva. What a horrific waste of two lives.

The guy obviously has serious freakin issues.

When he gets out of prison, I can see him going one of three ways:


1) With zero personal prospects of fully-independent self-sufficiency, become a permanent ‘ward’ of and dependent on the familial generosity of Uncle Arnie, work quietly for the family businesses and/or special projects, shun the public.

2) Defiantly ditch any and all pretense of efforts towards reform and rehabilitation, gravitate toward his underworld buddies (after all, as a killer ex-con, he’d fit right in) and resume his wild, playboy, adrenaline-fueled lifestyle. With no athletics career to anchor him with social and financial security and the glories of his old life long gone, reviled as a social pariah, what would he have to lose? He would fully embrace his official, ex-con ‘Bad Boy’ image and it wouldn’t be pretty.

3) A combination of 1 and 2, the “best” of both worlds. The security of the Pistorius home with frequent, drunken, disorderly ventures to the wild side. (Wonder how long Uncle Arnie would put up with that?) I’m not sure who’s the worst influence on OP - his pathologically coddling, enabling family or his high-flying, dubious-at-best, mafia-esque ‘associates’?

I take that back - there’s a fourth option.

4) Actually get his sh#t together, do a total 180 and re-invent himself in a completely new direction. Turn his self-inflicted losses and horrific, destructive choices into creative tools to share, create, give back and do good. Not only a new-and-improved Oscar, but a genuinely regenerated Oscar. (Hey, way stranger things have happened.) He could actually be an even GREATER inspiration than he was before. What could be more powerful than learning cautionary tales from a transformed man who’s experienced the extreme highs and lows of physical disability, elite sports, mental/emotional issues, prison and conquered his demons? This would indeed be a spectacular success story - the old sports hero Oscar Pistorius would pale in comparison.

What odds do I put on these four options?

1) 33%
He’ll likely go this route initially, if only for public consumption and to lick his prison ‘wounds’. Eventually, though, the sedate, straight-and-narrow lifestyle would chafe him and he would rebel to 2) or 3).

2) 33%
This lifestyle might be extremely tempting to him. As a convicted killer in a nation and world that hates him, he’d think, f### it, might as well go bad all the way. This rough, dangerous crowd represents POWER and STATUS - exactly what he lost, exactly what his arrogance craves.

3) 33%
Equally tempting. He wouldn’t want to lose the Pistorius financial security and family social status but his aggressive, narcissistic, Type-A, thrill-seeking personality (not modified or corrected) would demand he also seek excitement and danger by attempting to re-capture as much of his previously reckless, hedonistic lifestyle as he could outside family confines. The ‘Good Boy’ and the ‘Bad Boy’ would be at continual war.

4) 1%
This should be his #1 choice but I’m afraid Oscar may be too far gone mentally, emotionally and socially to be capable of this daunting option. It would be a massively long haul - years in the effort - and I’m not sure he’s got it in him to conquer his social stigma, to win hearts and new public respect as a truly reformed, better man. It would be a terrific long shot but not impossible.

There is also option 5). As suggested in an earlier post, it's very likely Oscar will become a regular and highly-paid speaker on the evangelical circuit. Here's my reasoning:

-- his most vociferous and loyal followers are Christians (seemingly of the hardcore, born again variety)
-- Robert Tillman Kendall, Chrisitian mininster and author of 50 books (including one called Total Forgiveness), was an early supporter and prayer buddy
-- several hundred million Christians in the world identify as Pentecostal, Charismatic or Evangelical
-- many of them are members of highly cashed-up, marketing-savvy assemblies with global television reach
-- much like his corporate sponsors, these organizations understand the power of a global icon when it comes to extracting cash from adoring fans
-- Oscar is the living embodiment of inescapable original sin and the path to redemption through a heavenly savior
-- his personal history of hardship, struggle and sacrifice is tailor-made (pun unintended)
-- like a prize show dog, he has pedigree, coming from a family of ostentatious faith
-- the Olympics, the trial and the Pistorius PR juggernaut have made him a household name worldwide
-- he already has the necessary skills and experience for the job (frequent traveler, attending sponsored functions, high-pitched tearful rhetoric, story telling)
-- he already has managers, handlers and hangers-on who won't want to get off the gravy train just yet

It's almost as though he was predestined to be the ultimate global ambassador for a particularly cynical brand of Christ.

Footnote: As a convicted criminal (particularly one with a five-years sentence for multiple crimes), would Oscar be allowed to travel to the US where his largest and most profitable audience lives? Logic says: "No". The Hranaka Waiver says: "Possibly". The Christian lobby and Uncle Arnie say: "Looks like a sure thing". Unless you're going to the US to commit espionage, overthrow the government, or have an untidy history of genocide "...immigration authorities can....easily approve a Hranka waiver application on discretionary grounds. Foreign nationals burdened with an inadmissibility bar still have a chance to make an argument to immigration officials." If you can get your legless nephew to run in the Olympics it can't be too difficult to get the anointed golden-boy of gospel into the USA.

For more on Hranka, look here (it's tedious, you've been warned): http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/applying-nonimmigrant-visa-hranka-waiver.html

As always, JMO.

 

[kittychi]

Thank you, Saint Paul. From time to time I've thought there might be a book in me, but looks like it's not coming out without surgery.

OZe...I agree with Paul about your writing.

I have an idea for a book for you: compile all of your forum posts with their contexts (from WS and where ever else you may post) and call it good

 

[Estelle]

No..I posted Grant's tweets..but I do confuse the two sometimes.. :blushing:

Here are his tweets..he was referring to an article that claimed the state will not be able to appeal:

James Grant @CriminalLawZA · 7h
To clarify - the case of Seekoei 1982 AD does not restrict the state's right to appeal against a decision of law "in favour of an accused".

James Grant @CriminalLawZA · 9h
... s319 relates to "reservation of law" questions - which require acquittal on charge and competent charge - Seekoei is authority for this.

James Grant @CriminalLawZA · 9h
... State's right to appeal arises from s310 of CPA where a decision of law is made "in the accused's favour"; different to s 319...

James Grant @CriminalLawZA · 9h
Respectfully, another mistake of law to claim that state cannot appeal as stated in: "Oscar verdict ‘a done deal’

----------------------

Here is the link to that article:
http://www.dispatchlive.co.za/gen/oscar-verdict-a-done-deal/

In the comments section of that link:

<modsnip>

http://criminallawza.net/2014/09/13/pistorius-remains-in-jeopardy-of-a-murder-conviction/

<modsnip>

http://www.dispatchlive.co.za/gen/oscar-verdict-a-done-deal/

 

[Fuskier]

Oscar Pistorius was heard weeping inconsolably during his first night in prison

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/10/23/broken-oscar-sobs-himself-to-sleep

To be expected; all part of his adjustment. He allegedly said at the start of his trial: "I always win". Well, not always Oscar. Here are consequences for what you did. Prison officials are familiar with this and can assist him through the 'transition' period. The Law has sanctioned him and set limits on his behaviour. If he has time to reflect, this experience could potentially help him grow into a better person IMO.

 

[AW2B]

In the comments section of that link:

<modsnip>

http://criminallawza.net/2014/09/13/pistorius-remains-in-jeopardy-of-a-murder-conviction/

<modsnip>

http://www.dispatchlive.co.za/gen/oscar-verdict-a-done-deal/

Whoever made that comment could be mistaken..where and when Grant admitted he made a mistake??

Here is his latest tweet which was AFTER the sentence..

James Grant
&#8207;@CriminalLawZA
IMO: Today's sentence was well reasoned as a sentence for Culp, but inconsistent with reasoning of verdict - which Nel may appeal.

 

[Estelle]

Whoever made that comment could be mistaken..where and when Grant admitted he made a mistake??

Here is his latest tweet which was AFTER the sentence..

James Grant
&#8207;@CriminalLawZA
IMO: Today's sentence was well reasoned as a sentence for Culp, but inconsistent with reasoning of verdict - which Nel may appeal.

That last comment saying Grant admitted he made a mistake was on September 19, 2014 so you would have to go back and read Grant's tweets before or on that date. It appears that what he had stated only applied to Magistrates Courts which implied that only the accused could appeal. But you can see this latest tweet is saying that Nel may appeal and he does not state any restrictions so he has corrected his thinking now.

 

[AW2B]

That last comment saying Grant admitted he made a mistake was on September 19, 2014 so you would have to go back and read Grant's tweets before or on that date. It appears that what he had stated only applied to Magistrates Courts which implied that only the accused could appeal. But you can see this latest tweet is saying that Nel may appeal and he does not state any restrictions so he has corrected his thinking now.

Thanks..I did find his apology..but I'm confused about his latest tweet suggesting that Nel may appeal..

You know what..I just found another tweet which may explain his latest tweet..he was probably referring to this type of appeal:

James Grant
&#8207;@CriminalLawZA
The 1982 Seekoei case held: no state legal appeal if conviction on competent verdict. But state can appeal this too, at SCA & the Con Court.

 

[Estelle]

There is also option 5). As suggested in an earlier post, it's very likely Oscar will become a regular and highly-paid speaker on the evangelical circuit. Here's my reasoning:

-- his most vociferous and loyal followers are Christians (seemingly of the hardcore, born again variety)
-- Robert Tillman Kendall, Chrisitian mininster and author of 50 books (including one called Total Forgiveness), was an early supporter and prayer buddy
-- several hundred million Christians in the world identify as Pentecostal, Charismatic or Evangelical
-- many of them are members of highly cashed-up, marketing-savvy assemblies with global television reach
-- much like his corporate sponsors, these organizations understand the power of a global icon when it comes to extracting cash from adoring fans
-- Oscar is the living embodiment of inescapable original sin and the path to redemption through a heavenly savior
-- his personal history of hardship, struggle and sacrifice is tailor-made (pun unintended)
-- like a prize show dog, he has pedigree, coming from a family of ostentatious faith
-- the Olympics, the trial and the Pistorius PR juggernaut have made him a household name worldwide
-- he already has the necessary skills and experience for the job (frequent traveler, attending sponsored functions, high-pitched tearful rhetoric, story telling)
-- he already has managers, handlers and hangers-on who won't want to get off the gravy train just yet

It's almost as though he was predestined to be the ultimate global ambassador for a particularly cynical brand of Christ.

Footnote: As a convicted criminal (particularly one with a five-years sentence for multiple crimes), would Oscar be allowed to travel to the US where his largest and most profitable audience lives? Logic says: "No". The Hranaka Waiver says: "Possibly". The Christian lobby and Uncle Arnie say: "Looks like a sure thing". Unless you're going to the US to commit espionage, overthrow the government, or have an untidy history of genocide "...immigration authorities can....easily approve a Hranka waiver application on discretionary grounds. Foreign nationals burdened with an inadmissibility bar still have a chance to make an argument to immigration officials." If you can get your legless nephew to run in the Olympics it can't be too difficult to get the anointed golden-boy of gospel into the USA.

For more on Hranka, look here (it's tedious, you've been warned): http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/applying-nonimmigrant-visa-hranka-waiver.html

As always, JMO.

Oze, I think that this is a good idea if OP could get the waiver. I can just see it now:

"Come all ye sinners....come to me to be saved. God forgives everyone. I was in prison once and in the depths of despair when God spoke to me and told me he would forgive my sins and take me away from all evil. I have been cleansed from my past sins and you can be cleansed too........ "

He could start his own church and call it the Pistorian Evangelical Temple for Born Again Christians.

Aimee and Carl could use twitter to tout for new members. They would all see a new purpose in life.

Soon OP would be swanning all over the world spreading the Gospel of Pistorians and setting up temples in every country which would let him in.

Donations would be rolling in....he would soon be driving a BMW again and buying properties all over the world. He would then get the admiration, adulation, adoration and worship that a true narcissist needs to survive...they are as necessary as air to him.

:gathering: :hilarious:

 

[AW2B]

Here is an article that talks about the possibility of a state appeal:

The NPA, however, has indicated that it has an "appetite" to appeal. "We have always stated first and foremost that we were disappointed with the conviction," NPA spokesman Nathi Mncube told reporters. "But we do find solace in the fact the accused will serve some time in prison."

Both sides have the opportunity to appeal within 14 days. Mncube said the NPA would use this time to consider whether the facts and the law allowed them to appeal, and suggested that the state would appeal the verdict, but not the sentence.

"It is not a straightforward matter because there is law we have to consider, to ensure that if we do take the matter to appeal, we are able to support the decision. But hopefully we will able to do so," he said.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news...nced-to-five-by-judge-masipa-today-watch-live

 

[Feynman]

I'd compare it to the assassination of John F. Kennedy (US President) in 1963 by alleged "lone gunman," Lee Harvey Oswald. Very few people believed that then and, even after all these decades, fewer still buy that cr@p.

I'd also, of course, compare it to OJ Simpson. Almost no one ever believed that he didn't do it, even most African Americans.

As people, we can be often be :thud:dumb :thud:but we're not always stupid. :scale:

You're wrong on the OJ case. Most blacks before the trial, and even more when the verdict came, thought OJ was innocent. See http://articles.philly.com/1995-10-01/news/25697504_1_simpson-trial-whites-nicole-brown-simpson

Also, comparing the Pistorius case to the JFK case seems wildly off the mark to me.

 

[vansleuths]

Below is a quote from the NPA. It's tragic to see that they would consider an appeal of the verdict but not the sentence. That just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.


Mncube said the NPA would use this time to consider whether the facts and the law allowed them to appeal, and suggested that the state would appeal the verdict, but not the sentence.

From http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news...y-judge-masipa-today-watch-live#ixzz3Gw78xkDO

 

[vansleuths]

Has anyone come across an article that:

1. Shows a picture of a typical cell that OP will be staying in for the next 10 months.

2. Shows what his daily routine in prison will be? I know he gets up at 5:30AM, has breakfast at 7AM, lunch at noon and dinner at 5PM, but does he spend his whole day in his cell or is he essentially out most of the day?