Trial Discussion Thread #59 - 14.21.10, Day 48 ~ sentencing~

[ColonelMustard]

WHEW, my heartbeat just start skipping .

...

But I was born and raised in Germany, just that I happily enjoy working in an international environment with fascinating different cultures

One cultural difference that initially threw me for loop was the reference to "the toilet".
In the context of the trial, "the toilet" was a room.

In the US, typically, "the toilet" refers to the fixture, the commode. The room in someone's home is typically referred to as "the bathroom."

 

[ColonelMustard]

...

You can only really hate someone when you have loved them.

...

A thought to add:

"The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference."

 

[Paul_1900]

wow, huge number of very interesting posts I still have to catch up with !!

Same as others I went back to Prof Grants tweets about state's right to appeal and some news articles.

What I read between the lines of the NPA spokesperson they may right now be busy with the same question.

"It is not a straightforward matter because there is law we have to consider, to ensure that if we do take the matter to appeal, we are able to support the decision. But hopefully we will able to do so,"

Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news...y-judge-masipa-today-watch-live#ixzz3GxgGUL9i

Don't know . . would somebody with a twitter account dare to contact Prof Grant on this matter ? Sorry, I don't have one and this legal language is also beyond my skills

>>> EDIT
to specify what is not clear to ME . . :thinking:

1. Does the state FIRST has to appeal 1982 Seekoei (at SCA or Constitutional Court) ?
2. OR can the state appeal directly ?
3. Can they appeal on matters of law only, or on matters of fact too ?

What I found was recommandations of the SA Law Commission of 2000 dealing with States right to appeal, not sure if below link is the final paper though. I recall having read somewhere that their proposals had been implemented since in many countries - ironically referring to that said commission - - - but unfortunately NOT incorporated IN SA LAW to date.

http://www.justice.gov.za/salrc/dpapers/dp89_prj73_agappeal_2000.pdf

 

[ColonelMustard]

I was the 'victim' of an attempted mugging in India on my first day in the country! It was in Delhi too, and it was two women and I'm a man. While one was trying to get money from me another wrapped her sari round my head and face and while I was trying to get it off they both tried to get into my day pack. I started shouting and within seconds a crowd of what seemed like 50 people had gathered and then a couple of the men started hitting the women and some old glass jars fell out of their saris and smashed on the footpath and meanwhile I was trying to get these guys to stop slapping the women ... it was just horrible. And the irony of it all was all they had managed to grab out of my bag was part of the paper wrapping around a book I had just bought - India - A Travel Survival Kit. Totally OT to OP I know but with all this talk of fear in Delhi I could neither stop the flashback nor resist telling the story.

That's an AMAZING (and awful story), VERY funny, too, in light of the book, of course: India - A Travel Survival KitHa!!!!

It's really interesting to me when sleuthers reveal their genders. Sometimes, I'm surprised. i'm not always correct in what I have subconsciously assumed. And, usernames totally can't be trusted. Lithgow1, you say you're a man, Paul_1900 just wrote that she's a woman, and I'm a woman, too.

"Colonel Mustard" is the first character name many people in the US think of in connection to a well-known American(?) board game called "Clue." It's a "whodunit" mystery game. There is also a "Mrs. Plum" character but few people remember her.

 

[ColonelMustard]

awww... that's so nice, Lux.

I've noticed your writing talent (as I feel sure everybody has) right along. Your ability to write great, well worded posts (one right after the other) and all interesting, articulate, and imaginative... leaves no doubt about your abilities. Then there's that thing where you turn a pen into a sword and make mincemeat out of your targets...

Being used to seeing you wield that sword, I was surprised when you opened up to us with a poetic turn that darn near ripped my heart out.

Simply put, you're an excellent writer.

Agreed - AND - there are MANY excellent writers on here.

To Paul_1900, who said she wasn't sure she'd have anything to contribute here...

1. I'm sure you do/will
2. Even if someone really didn't, they'd still be warmly welcomed!
3. I'm here, primarily, for three reasons:
a) It's really interesting
b) It's intellectually stimulating
c) So I can WORK ON my writing

I can speak, and often do, in front of hundreds of people with NO problem but my thinking gets jumbled up when I have to put it into written words and sentences and paragraphs.... AAAhhhhhhhhhh ( me screaming)

Speaking is very rich in that there is so much non-verbal. In writing, one has to be REALLY good so that others correctly understand what one is trying to express.

I don't like being misunderstood and have sometimes failed badly, here, in that regard (which makes me sad but also motivates me try harder.)

In the midst of all of this, if I contribute anything, it's just icing on the cake! Mostly, I love how much everyone else contributes AND the fact that some of you frequently - and everyone occasionally - is HYSTERICAL!.

For the serious nature of these forums, it's odd that I most of the laughter in my life is generated here.

It is a wonderful group of people. Glad you decided to wade into the water!!

 

[Paul_1900]

Ah, Lux et Veritas. Light and truth. Both have been casualties in this case and therein, as you've so eloquently expressed, lies our bitter harvest. There can be no doubt that both Reeva and Oscar's lives ended that fateful night. Yes, but he can carry on living, is the popular refrain. Make no mistake, as cold-blooded and narcissistic as he appears (perhaps justifiably), when he pulled that trigger he consigned himself to a living death. Alone with his fears, behind the bars of his own making, he might just wish he'd taken his chances with a warning shot into the shower.

If any joy at all can be squeezed out of this misery, it's the innate passion for justice that mirrors the outrage expressed by so many. It gives me some measure of comfort that people separated by country and culture can come together, as we've done here, to rage against the dying of the light.

Thanks for all your wonderful posts. Along with your heartfelt insights and acerbic humor, I've learnt from you the fine art of writing mod-proof expletives.

Thanks again to both, you and Lux for sharing your thoughts in such well put words !

BIB . . . haha . . you are no doubt a master of this !

I so wish OP would pick up the chances to work on his character and behaviour, and emerge a better person from prison. . .

 

[ColonelMustard]

Close friend reveals another side of Reeva


©The Daily Telegraph | 22 October, 2014 00:16

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/10/22/close-friend-reveals-another-side-of-reeva

------------

My thought:

Reeva was such a beautiful young woman that the style, color, and cut of her hair made no difference. Everything probably looked good on her.

That being said, I really like the pics of her with very dark hair (which I think is her nature color?). It's a beautiful contrast with her very fair skin.

 

[ColonelMustard]

That's an interesting point.

"The Oscar Pistorius trial – and the language Apartheid it reveals

But when we consider what this really tells us about our country, the answer actually lies in language.

There was simply no question that this trial would be heard in any language other than English. Right from the very beginning, it was simply assumed by everyone that English it would be. And so it was proven. And yet, no one actually acting in this trial has English as their first language. Judge Masipa doesn’t; both Roux and Gerrie Nel seem to speak Afrikaans as a first language. And yet English it is.

It is a strange quirk of our country that very few people have English as their first language, but it is fast removing Afrikaans from our courtrooms. This means that very few people will be tried in the language that speaks to their heart. And while the proceedings are interpreted, we all know that that can come with associated problems. Involving paranoid schizophrenia, sign language, and booing."

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...e-language-apartheid-it-reveals/#.VEfsOlcgues

I must be wrong but I thought Roux's first language was English. Oldwage was the native Afrikaans speaker, along with Nel.

 

[Paul_1900]

Agreed - AND - there are MANY excellent writers on here.

To Paul_1900, who said she wasn't sure she'd have anything to contribute here...

1. I'm sure you do/will
2. Even if someone really didn't, they'd still be warmly welcomed!
3. I'm here, primarily, for three reasons:
a) It's really interesting
b) It's intellectually stimulating
c) So I can WORK ON my writing

I can speak, and often do, in front of hundreds of people with NO problem but my thinking gets jumbled up when I have to put it into written words and sentences and paragraphs.... AAAhhhhhhhhhh ( me screaming)

Speaking is very rich in that there is so much non-verbal. In writing, one has to be REALLY good so that others correctly understand what one is trying to express.

I don't like being misunderstood and have sometimes failed badly, here, in that regard (which makes me sad but also motivates me try harder.)

In the midst of all of this, if I contribute anything, it's just icing on the cake! Mostly, I love how much everyone else contributes AND the fact that some of you frequently - and everyone occasionally - is HYSTERICAL!.

For the serious nature of these forums, it's odd that I most of the laughter in my life is generated here.

It is a wonderful group of people. Glad you decided to wade into the water!!

Um . . . thanks again to ALL here giving me such a warm welcome..

. . . now . . .you please stop flattering . . . it's getting a bit embarassing :redface:

BIB . subscribe 100 %, as well as the rest of your post. I've already learned so much all the excellent writers and thinkers here.

 

[Paul_1900]

New tweet, 1 hour ago

"James Grant @CriminalLawZA ·
I'm strongly in favour of appeal to redefine & clarify DE & error in objecto, & to challenge Seekoei hurdle to state appealing on the law."

. . . still not sure how to understand it . . :waitasec: . . . :hilarious: . . laughing at me

 

[ColonelMustard]

I've only read through page 10 of 73 and I've already come across factual errors.

In the very beginning of the judgment on page 2: "The house with a double storey with the main bedroom on the first floor, the accused slept in the main bedroom which had en suite facilities..."

Umm, the main bedroom was on the second floor. Did she not remember all the nonsense regarding the ladder? How OP attempted to justify thinking an intruder would enter his small bathroom window on the 2nd floor by saying workers left a ladder out and unsecured?! Even though it was argued there would have been an easier entry route for an intruder like the broken window on the 1st floor or his balcony door that was wide open??

And then on page 10 under common cause facts: "- that the deceased sustained a wound on the right thigh, a wound on the upper left arm, a head injury and a wound on the web of the fingers"

First of all, it was her hip bone that was hit and shattered, not her thigh. But more importantly, it wasn't her upper left arm, it was her right. It was the arm Mangena testified at length about when he described the defensive position Reeva was in as she tried to protect her head from all those damn bullets that kept coming through the closed door. It was the arm Wollie testified at length about regarding the wood splinters around the gunshot wound because it was the DT's case that she was reaching for the handle to open the door.

I realize these are minor errors, but they are errors nonetheless. Masipa and her assessors had a month to deliberate and prepare this judgment. Between the three of them, none of them caught these mistakes? Such carelessness truly makes one wonder how competently they looked at and considered all the evidence.

Maybe someone from SA can clarify it for us because I, too, was often confused during various testimony that his bedroom was on the 2nd floor. I wondered whether in SA, they consider it having a ground floor with 1st floor above it, while in the states we say first floor and 2nd floor.

 

[ColonelMustard]

I don't believe it. I read another media report which said OP slept soundly.

Aaaah...I just read this in the Times article:

"It's no picnic. Once the doors shut that's it. Other than a little grill bar window next to the cell door, through which to talk, there's no other way of communicating at night. When you talk from your cell you have to scream. For people to have heard him crying, it would have been very loud."

I bet he was putting on an act. Crying loudly through that with grill window open or shut? I bet he was screaming like a woman then!

Or the news story of crying was a PR plant by Uncle Arthur to garner sympathy for OP. Frankly, I won't put it past him.

 

[Paul_1900]

These are my idealist hopes, wishes, thoughts and predictions for OP:

1. The State mounts an appeal on the verdict. If they can on the sentence too to make it appropriate to the verdict of murder and also for the illegal ammunition. While the Appeal is being sought after, that OP is not given bail as IMO he could flee. He may as well be in prison to serve his time as it is not likely to be reduced.

2. That OP will never compete in athletics again anywhere but could contribute voluntarily.

3. That he eventually tells someone the truth as telling the truth sets you free and he later tells the Steenkamps. But I am not banking on it. I hope he at least tells a Psychologist instead of playing games in therapy puking, crying and lying and wasting his and everyone else's time. (I don't think Harsenburg is the right one for him now.) Otherwise, he will always have demons/ghosts in his mind and have to live a lie. Age 30yo, is the time most people reach maturity so it is important for his personal growth to be able to own up to things in his past, seek forgiveness and let his subconscious mind be free to be creative. He could get depressed and try to commit suicide otherwise. Anger management would be a start.

4. That he occupies his mind and considers completing his degree online while he is in confinement as there will be few distractions.

5. As I predict he has NPD, he will probably be very attention-seeking in prison and I have little hope for real change as he cannot be honest. he is a Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde character who will charm some wardens and nurses who give him attention but will be nasty to others.

6. That he does not associate with ex-crims again because that will be his undoing. Several ex-crims are already his enemy so he may be safer in Mozambique if they will let him in. He could even need a bodyguard once he is out and around again as he will not have a gun.

7. That he never has a secret gun again or steals one as I think he is "addicted" to them like a baby is to its security blanket.

8. That he works with Van Zyl with his Projects for the disabled one day but not sure where the money would come from now unless his grandfather or father dies and he inherits some or Uncle Arnie contributes.

9. That he never drinks heavily again once he is able to nor drinks too much coffee as he used to.

10. That no blonde models ever date him again! But there will always be Pistorians who will be around him and there's always Jenna. However, she will probably be married by the time this is over. I doubt he will marry until much older if at all and doubt whether he will want children.

11. That his family are trained not to coddle him any more.

12. That he has to live in the confines of his uncle's house after prison until the five years are up so at least someone is keeping a close eye on him.

13. That he sets some goals and achieves them even in prison instead of moping around feeling sorry for himself.

14. Instead of hiding behind religion, that he gets some solace from it.

15. I read that he is Category B and after a few months, good behaviour is rewarded by being put up to Category A where he can have a Coke or beer! I don't think they would be great incentives to him but I think they can also have more visitors than the two per week only on weekends that he can have now.

My main question is: Will he comply or will he rebel? He seems to have been into sabotage for a few years now so who knows?

Hi Estelle,

very thoughtful and insightfully balanced post. Special thanks for the BIB. But I feel admitting to what he has done is such a huge step, I don't see him doing it. I worry he will stick with believing his own lies to make it bearable for him and continue. But who knows . . .?

 

[JudgeJudi]

[h=2]Close friend reveals another side of Reeva[/h]
©The Daily Telegraph | 22 October, 2014 00:16

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/10/22/close-friend-reveals-another-side-of-reeva



Reeva was such a beautiful young woman that the style, color, and cut of her hair made no difference. Everything probably looked good on her.

That being said, I really like the pics of her with very dark hair (which I think is her nature color?). It's a beautiful contrast with her very fair skin.

You'll no doubt love this photo then. I've never seen it on the forum as yet.

 

[mister happy]

Or the news story of crying was a PR plant by Uncle Arthur to garner sympathy for OP. Frankly, I won't put it past him.

Could be. I suspect Oscar is pretty comfy, yakking on his cell phone to his teenybopper girlfriends.

 

[ColonelMustard]

You're wrong on the OJ case. Most blacks before the trial, and even more when the verdict came, thought OJ was innocent. See http://articles.philly.com/1995-10-01/news/25697504_1_simpson-trial-whites-nicole-brown-simpson

Also, comparing the Pistorius case to the JFK case seems wildly off the mark to me.

OJ verdict::

It depends on how far out you go (you linked to 1995) and, more importantly whether the primary media sources are white or black. There's also the CRITICAL issue of opinions that are shared for "public (i.e. white)" consumption in contrast to those shared exclusively among blacks (which is my source-point)


JFK Case::

Commenting and replying, here, can often be like the game of "telephone". Start a story at one point in a circle, whisper it to the next, who whispers it to the next, etc., until it gets to the very last person who shares it out loud. The story is never the same and off by a longshot. Ha!

You're commenting on my reply to an original post that's no longer visible. The original poster shared their frustration that, now that the verdict had been read, the sentencing over, and the trial finished, that OPs version of events would be accepted as "truth" from now on.

I disagreed and shared two examples of where the exact opposite has occurred. OJ was found not guilty and "everyone" "knows" he did it. JFK, few people have EVER believed it was a lone gunman.

Hope that clarifies a bit where I'm coming from - or trying to!

 

[ColonelMustard]

It may just be sloppy reporting. What I think he meant was that if the NPA was satisfied there were no errors in law by Masipa, they would not appeal the CH sentence (which many legal commentators suggest was expertly reasoned). Their focus seems to be on the danger of letting the judgement stand (for all the reasons apparent to the sleuthers, here). If, after their review, they conclude they do have a right (and a duty to SA) to mount an appeal, and that appeal results in a change of conviction (to DE or DD), my understanding from previous posts is that the sentence would certainly be up for review.

Finer minds will correct me if I've got it wrong.

The problem with the sentencing, I think, is that it was based on a verdict in which there was an error in law. While, perhaps expertly reasoned, is based on a faulty assumption.

A Juror 13 blog post linked to something written by Greenland which indicated that, while the verdict might be appealed the sentence could not be. A question was raised about that in the Juror 13 blog, after which Greenland came back in and said he was wrong about that. Beyond that info, I have no idea. The whole thing seems very confused, right now. Given another 13 days, plus or minus, we may find that it has become a moot point.

By the way, anyone know whether the window to appeal is a straight 14 days or 14 business/court days?

 

[ColonelMustard]

You'll no doubt love this photo then. I've never seen it on the forum as yet.

You're right. It's STUNNING!!

IN one of the interview shows I'm 99% certain that her dad said this is his very favorite photo of Reeva.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-shoot-winning-face-future-competition.html

I know it's huge. I don't know how t get it any smaller.

Anyway, she was 15 years old in this photo, a bridal/wedding fair shoot.

 

[Paul_1900]

Because there was already a mention of "textiles" in the first post, when the original person posted this about "tailoring" I thought she/he was playing on words and that he/she was referring to the tailoring of evidence that OP had done! I thought to myself that OP could give lessons about how to tailor as he was an expert at it!

Hi Estelle,

thanks for caring to point out about the "tailoring" . I understood the same way, i.e. a hint on OPs tailoring. Unfortunately I did not pick it up in my reply :-(

 

[Harmony 2]

Good morning~
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