Trial Discussion Thread #8 - 14.03.17, Day 11

[nastasya]

'The test that the court applies is - would a reasonable person who faced the same or a similar situation to your own have acted in the same or a similar manner in the same circumstances. You should therefore only use your firearm for self or private defence if you are satisfied that your actions are reasonable.'

https://mobile.twitter.com/MusingOnMovies

Let's put aside the the specifics of the OP case for a second and step into the common sense corner.

Imagine this scenario:

1. I'm working on my computer in the dining room.
2. My husband is upstairs sleeping in bed.
3. I hear the toilet flush upstairs.
4. I remember somebody broke into my car last week.
5. Therefore, I immediately grab my gun. I'm a woman and feel vulnerable.
6. I run upstairs, and shoot 4 times through the bathroom door.
7. Unfortunately it didn't dawn on me that it could have been my husband who got up to pee.
8. Turns out I shot my husband dead before he had a chance to go back to sleep.

Is this how a reasonable person would act?

 

[zwiebel]

The little exchange about the flash drive;

Roux asks photographer to make available to him the flash drive 'in the condition that you received it' (from the clerk). Implying perhaps, that the photographer might tamper with it.

Then Nel interjects to request the witness (photographer) 'will be present when it happens', implying Roux might tamper with it.

At which point Roux says 'We don't want to tamper with it'.

I don't think anyone on either side intended any tampering - it was all a bit of oneupmanship, I hope.

 

[Really?]

I missed the afternoon session, thanks from the updates everyone.

I can see Roux wanting the actual camera card. I know with my camera's SD card the pictures numbers are assigned in sequence of the order of taking. If a camera shot was later deleted from the card that shot's number will be missing from the order of sequence. It will be interesting.

Also from last week's testimony I thought Van Resberg was there and up in the bed/bath area with other officers before both Botha and Van Staden even arrived. If I get time I may go back and try to find Resberg's testimony.

BBM.........I wonder If a photo could be deleted "if" it was an oooops pic....the ones like I accidentally take......of the floor......my own finger tip...my own pant leg.....etc

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

van Staden said there were other photos.

Maybe the photos are with the watch and missing door pieces????!!

 

[foxbluff]

Let's put aside the the specifics of the OP case for a second and step into the common sense corner.

Imagine this scenario:

1. I'm working on my computer in the dining room.
2. My husband is upstairs sleeping in bed.
3. I hear the toilet flush upstairs.
4. I remember somebody broke into my car last week.
5. Therefore, I immediately grab my gun. I'm a woman and feel vulnerable.
6. I run upstairs, and shoot 4 times through the bathroom door.
7. Unfortunately it didn't dawn on me that it could have been my husband who got up to pee.
8. Turns out I shot my husband dead before he had a chance to go back to sleep.

Is this how a reasonable person would act?

OMG...that's both chilling and funny at the same time. As to your defense, IMO, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Rumpole]

I recall van Staden eventually confessing that he took 4 photos of OP in the Garage and then moved on to take an outside shot and so on into the crime scene... the Prosthetic legs photos were much later. I'll see if I can find that too in the YT clip posted.

like a lot of the testimony you don't get a straight answer first time... but you do after asking the same question a few times.

At one point, even after being pressed by Roux Van Staden said unequivocally that he took 9 shots of OP in the garage and then moved outside, but later on he contradicted himself...

1:03:39 --->
First he backs down from all 9 photos in the garage to "some of the photos" :banghead:

1:04:15--->
When pressed by Roux "some" becomes 4 :banghead:

And as far as the other 5 photos go... "I took them at a later stage" :banghead:

ROUX: "After you had been through the rest of the house"

VAN STADEN: "YES" :banghead:

It's like pulling teeth with every witness. It sure looks like they are pushing a narrative to me.


I do wonder when people are so evasive over small points if they have an agenda and narrative they are trying to impose?

 

[whiterum]

Maybe the photos are with the watch and missing door pieces????!!

Maybe the watch and the door pieces were hidden in the foot of OP's false leg ??? :waitasec:

 

[BritsKate]

Let's put aside the the specifics of the OP case for a second and step into the common sense corner.

Imagine this scenario:

1. I'm working on my computer in the dining room.
2. My husband is upstairs sleeping in bed.
3. I hear the toilet flush upstairs.
4. I remember somebody broke into my car last week.
5. Therefore, I immediately grab my gun. I'm a woman and feel vulnerable.
6. I run upstairs, and shoot 4 times through the bathroom door.
7. Unfortunately it didn't dawn on me that it could have been my husband who got up to pee.
8. Turns out I shot my husband dead before he had a chance to go back to sleep.

Is this how a reasonable person would act?

And the defense will argue that an able-bodied person's reaction cannot be considered equivalent to a disabled person's. That's where we're headed.

And while there likely is truth in that statement, I can't believe in a law only written for certain individuals while exempting others. My husband is disabled - but he wasn't born that way, he isn't rich, and he's certainly no sports hero. Every day he's forced to prove just because his legs don't work properly doesn't mean he isn't a sentient, intelligent, capable individual.

Oscar Pistorius had what many disabled people can only dream of - wealth, respect, admiration even and most importantly, acceptance. He threw it away and now that he faces a lifetime in prison - now, just now - he wants to be seen as something different than other able-bodied sports figures, despite fighting for that very status for much of his life.

JMO and FWIW

 

[Cher352]

BBM.........I wonder If a photo could be deleted "if" it was an oooops pic....the ones like I accidentally take......of the floor......my own finger tip...my own pant leg.....etc

I suppose so I delete a lot of those types, but in any criminal investigation it might be better to keep all the "oops" so some defense doesn't try to make something out of it. Wonder if there are any written policies that cover this with any LE groups?

 

[james83]

Let's put aside the the specifics of the OP case for a second and step into the common sense corner.

Imagine this scenario:

1. I'm working on my computer in the dining room.
2. My husband is upstairs sleeping in bed.
3. I hear the toilet flush upstairs.
4. I remember somebody broke into my car last week.
5. Therefore, I immediately grab my gun. I'm a woman and feel vulnerable.
6. I run upstairs, and shoot 4 times through the bathroom door.
7. Unfortunately it didn't dawn on me that it could have been my husband who got up to pee.
8. Turns out I shot my husband dead before he had a chance to go back to sleep.

Is this how a reasonable person would act?

As long as you can prove you can scream like a man you'll be o.k.

 

[zwiebel]

Let's put aside the the specifics of the OP case for a second and step into the common sense corner.

Imagine this scenario:

1. I'm working on my computer in the dining room.
2. My husband is upstairs sleeping in bed.
3. I hear the toilet flush upstairs.
4. I remember somebody broke into my car last week.
5. Therefore, I immediately grab my gun. I'm a woman and feel vulnerable.
6. I run upstairs, and shoot 4 times through the bathroom door.
7. Unfortunately it didn't dawn on me that it could have been my husband who got up to pee.
8. Turns out I shot my husband dead before he had a chance to go back to sleep.

Is this how a reasonable person would act?

I come from a family of zombie sleepwalkers and I'm a nervous as a cat, night bird. If I'd shot everytime someone lumbered out of of the dark at me, or rustled in the wardrobe (why IS it sleepwalkers settle in wardobes?) or under the bed (creepiest of all).....

The nearest I came to striking out without yelling "Who is it!" was when hubby sat on me as I leant over my toolbox. It was all a bit too late then anyhow. I won't tell you what the sleeping angel had mistaken me for....

 

[nastasya]

Thanks for your many 1a posts, I haven't answered with "Thanks"!

When VR and Botha were touring through OP's home, they did know only this: A man (OP) had shot his girlfriend in the toilet cubicle because of thinking there were burglars in this corner. The dead person, covered in blood, was laying downstairs.

What didn't fit the puzzle, was anything but: bullets, cartridges and blood around the toilet cubicle and blood traces between bathroom and the last stair on the ground floor.

Didn't fit and being suspect: bedroom door with hole/damage, blood everywhere in the bedroom (duvet, wall above bedside table, couch, box with several watches), cartridge in the passage, blood on tiles above bassins, cellphones on the floor, blood on cricket bat.
Did I forgot something?
Yes: the airgun standing within range.
Something more??

Something more?

• OP didn't call the police.
• Pieter Baba said OP told him everything was fine.
• Broken window downstairs.
• Broken toilet door.
• Body downstairs instead of where RS was shot.
• Black garbage bags covering body.
• Stander and daughter first on the scene.
• No ladder outside window.
• No calls to the police about alleged intruder.
• Story that alleged burglar was in the toilet stall.
• Pools of blood in the bathroom and body downstairs.
• No calls to security about burglar.
• OP didn't check the remainder of the house for intruders.
• RS wounds on right side, no blood on right side of toilet.
• Key in outside of toilet door.
• Bruises on RS's legs.
• Dented panel on bathtub.
• Mat over blood splatter and phone in bathroom.
• OP not explaining why he thought RS was a burglar.
• RS dressed in day clothes when shot.
• Shot through shorts.
• Injury between fingers of RS's hand.
• Multiple gunshot wounds to RS.

Any one of these might be cause for suspicion. Collectively it's reasonable to conclude there was violence between RS and OP that resulted with OP killing RS and then OP trying to cover it up.

 

[zwiebel]

At one point, even after being pressed by Roux Van Staden said unequivocally that he took 9 shots of OP in the garage and then moved outside, but later on he contradicted himself...

1:03:39 --->
First he backs down from all 9 photos in the garage to "some of the photos" :banghead:

1:04:15--->
When pressed by Roux "some" becomes 4 :banghead:

And as far as the other 5 photos go... "I took them at a later stage" :banghead:

ROUX: "After you had been through the rest of the house"

VAN STADEN: "YES" :banghead:

It's like pulling teeth with every witness. It sure looks like they are pushing a narrative to me.


I do wonder when people are so evasive over small points if they have an agenda and narrative they are trying to impose?

I no longer feel so guilty about being confused. I think it really was confusing....

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

Let's put aside the the specifics of the OP case for a second and step into the common sense corner.

Imagine this scenario:

1. I'm working on my computer in the dining room.
2. My husband is upstairs sleeping in bed.
3. I hear the toilet flush upstairs.
4. I remember somebody broke into my car last week.
5. Therefore, I immediately grab my gun. I'm a woman and feel vulnerable.
6. I run upstairs, and shoot 4 times through the bathroom door.
7. Unfortunately it didn't dawn on me that it could have been my husband who got up to pee.
8. Turns out I shot my husband dead before he had a chance to go back to sleep.

Is this how a reasonable person would act?

This would be perfectly reasonable, particularly if you were still somewhat rattled from the long heated argument that you and your husband had had before he went to bed!!??

 

[zwiebel]

Something more?

• OP didn't call the police.
• Pieter Baba said OP told him everything was fine.
• Broken window downstairs.
• Broken toilet door.
• Body downstairs instead of where RS was shot.
• Black garbage bags covering body.
• Stander and daughter first on the scene.
• No ladder outside window.
• No calls to the police about alleged intruder.
• Story that alleged burglar was in the toilet stall.
• Pools of blood in the bathroom and body downstairs.
• No calls to security about burglar.
• OP didn't check the remainder of the house for intruders.
• RS wounds on right side, no blood on right side of toilet.
• Key in outside of toilet door.
• Bruises on RS's legs.
• Dented panel on bathtub.
• Mat over blood splatter and phone in bathroom.
• OP not explaining why he thought RS was a burglar.
• RS dressed in day clothes when shot.
• Shot through shorts.
• Injury between fingers of RS's hand.
• Multiple gunshot wounds to RS.

Any one of these might be cause for suspicion. Collectively it's reasonable to conclude there was violence between RS and OP that resulted with OP killing RS and then OP trying to cover it up.

I saw a tweet somewhere about a picture of the ladders, all laying in the garden away from the bathroom window. I wonder if anyone got a screen shot, or has found a media one? I'd like to see how tall they were.

 

[foxbluff]

And the defense will argue that an able-bodied person's reaction cannot be considered equivalent to a disabled person's. That's where we're headed.

And while there likely is truth in that statement, I can't believe in a law only written for certain individuals while exempting others. My husband is disabled - but he wasn't born that way, he isn't rich, and he's certainly no sports hero. Every day he's forced to prove just because his legs don't work properly doesn't mean he isn't a sentient, intelligent, capable individual.

Oscar Pistorius had what many disabled people can only dream of - wealth, respect, admiration even and most importantly, acceptance. He threw it away and now that he faces a lifetime in prison - now, just now - he wants to be seen as something different than other able-bodied sports figures, despite fighting for that very status for much of his life.

JMO and FWIW

Well stated!

BBM - And this, IMO, is what he is so mortified over... he can't admit to being a coldblooded murderer so he's left w/making himself out to be a scared, helpless, little wimp...

 

[soozieqtips]

~snipped~

[*]OP didn't check the remainder of the house for intruders.

Yeah, why did he assume there was only one intruder? If there had been more than one, him yelling at the 'first' intruder to 'get out of my house' would have effectively shut any other ones up. So what made this 'terrified and fearful' individual so sure that there was only one intruder?

 

[Rumpole]

I no longer feel so guilty about being confused. I think it really was confusing....

I agree it is confusing. ullhair:

I listen live and do remember some bits

I get lost in the fine detail of the original testimony... but I perk up for the cross examination.

 

[zwiebel]

I am questioning the bloodstains on BOTH sides of the cricket bat too.

This pic shows the logo side, before the photographer turned it over. I don't have it now, but know there is a photo of the other side too, with all the black signatures and a thick bloodstain.

Now I can understand the cricket bat being used to bash the door and then, when it was dropped into blood, getting a big smear on the underside, but how did all the blood get on top of it too? And why was there so much blood on the underside, when in this pic it appears to be resting on just spots. There is an awful lot of blood on both sides of it, I think.

 

[zwiebel]

A Cape judge has reprimanded a long-winded prosecutor in a completely different case, saying he doesn't want it 'to turn into an Oscar Pistorius trial'.....

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Cape-judge-warns-against-Oscar-trial-20140317