Trial Discussion weekend Thread #18

[MeeBee]

Yes, GPRS is activated for any internet related functions including the whatsapp app.

GPRS can also be activated by automatic updates on your phone, incoming emails, etc. It doesn't necessarily have to be human interaction to cause GPRS to activate.

But if the Judge has any questions about a particular GPRS activation, all she has to do is refer back to the data downloads to see if there is any particular data for that exact time i.e. a text message.

And she could also match the GPRS connections to the internet history, as well. One of her questions implied she might do just that.

ETA: I think that is exactly what you were saying in regards to "data at that time."

 

[sorrell skye]

I don't think it was a butt dial - I think it was OP trying to call security but not being able to speak. Then Baba called back. Those were the only two calls.

Baba misremembered the order of the calls

I agree it wasn't a butt dial.

And if he called and was sobbing with no one around, then it flies in the face, I think, of someone calculatingly trying to cover his crime immediately after the shooting.

I, too, think Baba may have misremembered the order of the phone calls. Phone records show that OP called Baba first. When Baba called OP back, OP said "Everything is fine."

Whether or not OP intended to call Baba is a question I have. He may have accidentally pushed a speed dial button, or he may have called Baba on purpose. OP sounding like he was crying during that call to Baba (which lasted about 9 seconds) is proof of nothing, IMO.

If he called Baba on purpose, why then did he tell Baba that everything was fine when Baba called him back less than a minute later?

I think it's because OP didn't want security to come to his house, both before he killed Reeva and afterward. When he heard the alleged mysterious noise that he claims he thought was a burglar, he didn't press the panic button, which would have alerted security immediately that he needed assistance, nor did he tell Baba what had happened after he shot Reeva.

I would have expected an excited utterance at that particular point (when he was on the phone with Baba). I would expect OP to have blurted out the intruder story to Baba, if OP's belief in the intruder story is true. Such is the nature of excited utterances. They come out automatically without thinking or forethought. They don't occur later after someone has had time to think or reflect.

Instead of an excited utterance about a mistaken belief in an intruder, OP calmly told Baba "everything is fine". It wasn't until several minutes later, after he carried Reeva downstairs and saw Stander, Stander's daughter Clarice, Baba, and Dr. Stipp, that he said "I shot Reeva by mistake. I thought she was an intruder."

Why didn't he tell Baba "I shot Reeva by mistake. I thought she was an intruder" when Baba called him at 3:22:05?

Personally, I think OP was surprised that so many people showed up on his doorstep so quickly. I think he was only expecting Stander. I think he came up with the "intruder" excuse when he saw all the unexpected witnesses in his foyer and at his door. I think the excited utterance window had closed by that point, and I think he intentionally blamed his actions on a phantom intruder because it was the first excuse he could think of.

1. OP's statement to Baba that "everything is fine" when everything was not fine, but was, in fact, disastrous, and then, when faced with multiple, unexpected witnesses several minutes later, to say that he mistook Reeva for an intruder, seems like an attempt to cover his crime, IMO.

2. Let us also not forget that his personal phone went missing from the crime scene. Someone orchestrated its removal from the house. I think that person was OP, with a little help from his friends, who were allowed to talk with him and comfort him after he killed Reeva.

3. Oh - and after that phone was finally turned over to the prosecution, OP conveniently forgot his whatsapp password.

Collectively, if the above 3 numbered points are not evidence of potentially trying to cover up his crime, IDK what is.

 

[lisasalinger]

The security guards who were called to the house on the evening of the 13th to tell the occupant and his guest that neighbours were concerned about the commotion that was going on inside will also weaken Pistorius's claims that he shot Steenkamp by mistake in the middle of the night when he thought someone was trying to enter his fortified house.

Snipped for space and BBM

Thank you, James! I appreciate you sharing that.

I'm assuming that the portion I bolded above must have been a media rumor or error because the State did not introduce any evidence of security going there that night (the 13th) due to a commotion.

 

[Cherry]

Insp dots has the cutest trial addict avatar ever! Wtg I lv it!

 

[lisasalinger]

And she could also match the GPRS connections to the internet history, as well. One of her questions implied she might do just that.

ETA: I think that is exactly what you were saying in regards to "data at that time."

Yes! By just looking at phone records alone, you can't tell what is human interaction and what is an automatic function of the phone.

BUT... the forensic software that they used on all of the devices (phones, ipads, MacBook) captured everything. Literally everything on those devices.

If the Judge sees that there was a GPRS connection at 10pm, all she has to do is look at the data downloads for 10pm for that device and she will see exactly what the phone or ipad was doing at that time.

Even though we saw summaries and only heard a few select texts, all of this information was submitted as evidence and the defense was given all of it too.

 

[lisasalinger]

if i can just go back to something Van Rensburg said in his testimony "Clarice told me that both she and her father had been called by Pistorius", not sure if she meant they had both received phone calls, but even if they didn't it seems odd that Pistorius asked for her to come over along with her father.

They lived together so I'm guessing it was one call. That call was 24 seconds so he probably said get here as fast as you can and bring Clarice.

I really do not believe it's a coincidence that she's a lawyer.

In the worst moment of his life, these are the people that he chose to reach out to first. That says A LOT to me.

 

[Rumpole]

Yes! By just looking at phone records alone, you can't tell what is human interaction and what is an automatic function of the phone.

BUT... the forensic software that they used on all of the devices (phones, ipads, MacBook) captured everything. Literally everything on those devices.

If the Judge sees that there was a GPRS connection at 10pm, all she has to do is look at the data downloads for 10pm for that device and she will see exactly what the phone or ipad was doing at that time.

Even though we saw summaries and only heard a few select texts, all of this information was submitted as evidence and the defense was given all of it too.

I wonder, though if a Judge would go hunting back and forth to match records like that. If there is a point to make... Nel (or Roux) need to bring it to the Judge's attention. Since Nel has not (yet) made a point about internet access time shown in the wee small hours and linked that to a message or whatever, it probably never happened. I doubt the Judge will go hunting and doing forensic phone analysis for herself.

 

[MeeBee]

Does anyone know how long it usually takes a judge to make a decision in SA?

 

[MeeBee]

I wonder, though if a Judge would go hunting back and forth to match records like that. If there is a point to make... Nel (or Roux) need to bring it to the Judge's attention. Since Nel has not (yet) made a point about internet access time shown in the wee small hours and linked that to a message or whatever, it probably never happened. I doubt the Judge will go hunting and doing forensic phone analysis for herself.

If there was anything to show I'm sure Nel would have shown it. I think the judge will still look though, just to make sure for herself.

 

[vansleuths]

I understand OP is going to do whatever he can to prove his innocence including using his disability, but.....

Seriously, does he look disabled? The picture of him on the night of the murder with no shirt, wow! He's more physically fit and muscular then most people I know. I'm sure he could take care of himself.

He also felt his loss of legs were not a disability and he had no issue petitioning to run in the Olympics as opposed to the paraolympics.

 

[lisasalinger]

I agree it wasn't a butt dial.

And if he called and was sobbing with no one around, then it flies in the face, I think, of someone calculatingly trying to cover his crime immediately after the shooting.

I totally subscribe to the butt dial theory. Here is why. Look at the series of calls on Oscar's phone (the one that was stolen from the scene):

03:21:33 – Outgoing call to 6797 (Baba, security) – 9 seconds

03:21:47 – Outgoing call to 121 (voicemail) – 7 seconds

03:22:05 – Incoming call from 6797 (Baba, security) - Oscar answers and says "everything is fine"

During cross-examination, Roux asked Moller if it was a likely hypothesis that the 7 second call to voicemail at 3:21 was an "accidental" call (or butt dial as we call it) and Moller agrees that it easily could be a mistake. So the 9 second call prior to that could just as easily be a mistake.

If Oscar was so upset that he couldn't talk, why answer Baba's call immediately after and tell him everything is fine.

It just doesn't ring true to me.

The data that I would LOVE to see is for these specific items on Oscar's phone:

01:48:48 – GPRS – 309 seconds

03:18:45 – GPRS – 75 seconds

 

[Rumpole]

If there was anything to show I'm sure Nel would have shown it. I think the judge will still look though, just to make sure for herself.

I still think the Judge will need some sort of cue that there is something to look for. Some reason to check a particular time GPRS event. Nel and Roux have already done the research I am sure. If there was anything they would have said.
There is always the pipe dream that Nel is going "ambush" OP with something... but I doubt that is allowed, and anyway Roux would already be aware of it too.

 

[MeeBee]

I still think the Judge will need some sort of cue that there is something to look for. Some reason to check a particular time GPRS event. Nel and Roux have already done the research I am sure. If there was anything they would have said.
There is always the pipe dream that Nel is going "ambush" OP with something... but I doubt that is allowed, and anyway Roux would already be aware of it too.

I think wherever there is a GPRS connection then she will want to cross check the data to see if there is anything that can account for them, i.e. the internet history, the text history, etc. If there's nothing to show there then she can chalk it up to an automatic GPRS connection.

I agree, though, that Nel is not going to ambush OP with anything new and devastating. And, you're right, if there's anything there, Roux will get there first.

 

[lisasalinger]

Lisa posted this image today:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42552&d=1396623738

There are a lot of people here that know what Reevas ex-boyfriend's look like, sadly I do not, but no one said that this man looks like any of them. From all of Reeva's texts where she is basically bending over backwards to develop a loving relationship with OP I cannot begin to believe that he is some man that Reeva was interested in; and both the State and the DT have not indicated that either. So I wonder who he is, and I wonder what his connection is to OP and the murder of Reeva...

No clue who he is and I agree that it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

When I originally watched that day I had noticed it and grabbed a screen shot. There is no identifying information about him and no mention of him in testimony, so I just held on to the pic and didn't think much about it. But then a poster here had asked about it today so I passed it along.

It could be nothing at all, maybe a friend, relative, etc.

 

[lisasalinger]

Personally, I think OP was surprised that so many people showed up on his doorstep so quickly. I think he was only expecting Stander. I think he came up with the "intruder" excuse when he saw all the unexpected witnesses in his foyer and at his door. I think the excited utterance window had closed by that point, and I think he intentionally blamed his actions on a phantom intruder because it was the first excuse he could think of.

1. OP's statement to Baba that "everything is fine" when everything was not fine, but was, in fact, disastrous, and then, when faced with multiple, unexpected witnesses several minutes later, to say that he mistook Reeva for an intruder, seems like an attempt to cover his crime, IMO.

2. Let us also not forget that his personal phone went missing from the crime scene. Someone orchestrated its removal from the house. I think that person was OP, with a little help from his friends, who were allowed to talk with him and comfort him after he killed Reeva.

3. Oh - and after that phone was finally turned over to the prosecution, OP conveniently forgot his whatsapp password.
Collectively, if the above 3 numbered points are not evidence of potentially trying to cover up his crime, IDK what is.

Snipped for space and BBM

Yes!! Agree with all.

I find it interesting that he was standing upstairs, according to Baba's testimony, and did not come down until he saw all of them standing at the doorway. That was his big "oh sh#t" moment.

 

[lisasalinger]

I still think the Judge will need some sort of cue that there is something to look for. Some reason to check a particular time GPRS event. Nel and Roux have already done the research I am sure. If there was anything they would have said.
There is always the pipe dream that Nel is going "ambush" OP with something... but I doubt that is allowed, and anyway Roux would already be aware of it too.

I agree that the State needs to lead her to those points. They did actually lead her to do that for Reeva's GPRS activity at:

20:04:00 – GPRS – 17 seconds – tower closest to Oscar’s.

20:04:17 – The last GPRS of the day – 41,029 seconds (over 11 hours) – tower closest to Oscar’s.

The way I see this potentially working is not so much a huge gotcha moment or anything like that, but I can definitely see Nel using it to discredit something that Oscar may claim.

 

[lisasalinger]

Does anyone know how long it usually takes a judge to make a decision in SA?

I'd be curious to know too. And I wonder if they do a verdict watch where it's announced that the verdict is in and they give everybody time to get to their TVs I hope so!

 

[lisasalinger]

I wonder, though if a Judge would go hunting back and forth to match records like that. If there is a point to make... Nel (or Roux) need to bring it to the Judge's attention. Since Nel has not (yet) made a point about internet access time shown in the wee small hours and linked that to a message or whatever, it probably never happened. I doubt the Judge will go hunting and doing forensic phone analysis for herself.

Yep, again, I agree. But I do think it's possible that Nel wants to hear what Oscar has to say first before he uses some bits of information against him. The defense has seen all of it so it shouldn't be something that totally shocks them, but maybe he's just waiting for the right trip-up moment.

Who knows... there could be nothing there. Maybe they texted recipes to each other. In the absence of any new trial revelations for over a week now, it's fun to imagine.

 

[lisasalinger]

If there was anything to show I'm sure Nel would have shown it. I think the judge will still look though, just to make sure for herself.

If somebody gave me a binder full of people's private text message conversations, emails and pictures... I'd put on a pot of coffee, kick up my feet and dig in. But I'm a nosy bast@rd.

 

[MeeBee]

If somebody gave me a binder full of people's private text message conversations, emails and pictures... I'd put on a pot of coffee, kick up my feet and dig in. But I'm a nosy bast@rd.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh: