Trial Discussion weekend Thread #18

[lisasalinger]

I just spent some time going back thru the State's testimony to get ready for tonight and one thing that nags at me (amongst many things) is that Oscar had a decent amount of time in his house before the cops arrived.

Security (Baba) never made it inside the house. And Dr. Stipp left after he examined Reeva and spoke to Stander outside. The cops had not arrived yet. They arrived close to 4am. There was a chunk of time where it was just Oscar and the Standers.

The ambulance did arrive prior to the police but I don't have an arrival time on them. Does anybody else?

 

[lisasalinger]

Don't you think it's funny, since he felt so vulnerable without his legs, that he would only grab his gun and not his legs? They were right there.

Absolutely

 

[TrueDetective]

I just spent some time going back thru the State's testimony to get ready for tonight and one thing that nags at me (amongst many things) is that Oscar had a decent amount of time in his house before the cops arrived.

Security (Baba) never made it inside the house. And Dr. Stipp left after he examined Reeva and spoke to Stander outside. The cops had not arrived yet. They arrived close to 4am. There was a chunk of time where it was just Oscar and the Standers.

The ambulance did arrive prior to the police but I don't have an arrival time on them. Does anybody else?

Hi Lisa, from the timeline it states that Ambulance arrived at 03.42 but I'm not sure if that was into the main gates or directly at the scene. Either way there was at least 20 minutes with just the Standers / Stipp.
Van Rensburg arrived at 03.55 iirc

It's a huge amount of time that the statements really have not filled to any realistic degree.

Over to you Mr Nel.

 

[lisasalinger]

Hi Lisa, from the timeline it states that Ambulance arrived at 03.42 but I'm not sure if that was into the main gates or directly at the scene. Either way there was at least 20 minutes with just the Standers / Stipp.
Van Rensburg arrived at 03.55 iirc

It's a huge amount of time that the statements really have not filled to any realistic degree.

Over to you Mr Nel.

Thanks :seeya:

 

[Val1]

I just spent some time going back thru the State's testimony to get ready for tonight and one thing that nags at me (amongst many things) is that Oscar had a decent amount of time in his house before the cops arrived.

Security (Baba) never made it inside the house. And Dr. Stipp left after he examined Reeva and spoke to Stander outside. The cops had not arrived yet. They arrived close to 4am. There was a chunk of time where it was just Oscar and the Standers.

The ambulance did arrive prior to the police but I don't have an arrival time on them. Does anybody else?

This was why I was questioning why anyone would be blaming the police for tampering when there was more than enough opportunity for OP and friends to have disturbed the crime scene past the point where everything was suspect, even the marks on the toilet door let alone where any blood evidence had been splattered. ie. why were there bloody towels in the bathroom?

 

[Viper]

Hi Lisa, from the timeline it states that Ambulance arrived at 03.42 but I'm not sure if that was into the main gates or directly at the scene. Either way there was at least 20 minutes with just the Standers / Stipp.
Van Rensburg arrived at 03.55 iirc

It's a huge amount of time that the statements really have not filled to any realistic degree.

Over to you Mr Nel.

But what did OP do upstairs? His hands were bloody when he ran upstairs so... His phone, yes. The watch box and duvet, yes. He may have stopped and figured that he was screwing up and went to wash his hands. And then?

OP left the bedroom a mess. He was focused on what was important to him, most likely IMO his electronic devices. Your thoughts...

 

[Val1]

But what did OP do upstairs? His hands were bloody when he ran upstairs so... His phone, yes. The watch box and duvet, yes. He may have stopped and figured that he was screwing up and went to wash his hands. And then?

OP left the bedroom a mess. He was focused on what was important to him, most likely IMO his electronic devices. Your thoughts...

Did we ever hear where the speech RS was going to give was kept? Was it on one of the ipads that were synced and littering the floor on the right side of the bed where OP supposedly had brought in the fans?

 

[screecher]

Excellent question, Val. Hmmmm....makes one wonder.

 

[Bazinga]

I just spent some time going back thru the State's testimony to get ready for tonight and one thing that nags at me (amongst many things) is that Oscar had a decent amount of time in his house before the cops arrived.

Security (Baba) never made it inside the house. And Dr. Stipp left after he examined Reeva and spoke to Stander outside. The cops had not arrived yet. They arrived close to 4am. There was a chunk of time where it was just Oscar and the Standers.

The ambulance did arrive prior to the police but I don't have an arrival time on them. Does anybody else?

I agree that this is troubling and hopefully the cross checking of phone records might uncover the truth.
I would imagine Dr Stipp wouldn't have left until an ambulance arrived. But the paramedics are not there to secure a crime scene.
It is a long time from shooting to when police arrive. Ive had a look at the timelines thread. Who called who, who came when, who left when and add in ambulance and police. It still seems there are bits missing or calls said to be made but don't seem confirmed yet by phone records or witness statements. It seems according to timelines that the ambulance arrived around 3.42 with col Van Resberg arriving shortly after.
I've always been confused about how The Standers got there in an instant. (More teleporting!! ) Still can't understand time of call to Stander ? 3.19 am and time of arrival at house ?3.20-3.23am? - if anyone can clarify? How did they dress and get to house in 1-4 minutes? And other friends, family, lawyer got there very quickly. How many before ambulance and police?

 

[Rumpole]

This was why I was questioning why anyone would be blaming the police for tampering when there was more than enough opportunity for OP and friends to have disturbed the crime scene past the point where everything was suspect, even the marks on the toilet door let alone where any blood evidence had been splattered. ie. why were there bloody towels in the bathroom?

I think the point is... if you do think there was tampering by anybody... all the more reason for the police to be on the ball and not add to it.
For instance if it was obvious some item was moved after the incident itself... and you could PROVE somebody nipped in and tampered with things. That would be HUGE.. powerful evidence that the defendant (or somebody helping him) had knowledge of guilt. In this case if there is something moved.... it's possible (likely) one of the cops did it.

 

[G.bng]

I just spent some time going back thru the State's testimony to get ready for tonight and one thing that nags at me (amongst many things) is that Oscar had a decent amount of time in his house before the cops arrived.

Security (Baba) never made it inside the house. And Dr. Stipp left after he examined Reeva and spoke to Stander outside. The cops had not arrived yet. They arrived close to 4am. There was a chunk of time where it was just Oscar and the Standers.

The ambulance did arrive prior to the police but I don't have an arrival time on them. Does anybody else?

I am sure Stipp didn't leave at least until the first responders arrived... no?

 

[Val1]

I think the point is... if you do think there was tampering by anybody... all the more reason for the police to be on the ball and not add to it.
For instance if it was obvious some item was moved after the incident itself... and you could PROVE somebody nipped in and tampered with things. That would be HUGE.. powerful evidence that the defendant (or somebody helping him) had knowledge of guilt. In this case if there is something moved.... it's possible (likely) one of the cops did it.

So now the police are responsible for moving the body, all the friends and family members entering the crime scene(everyone with any sense at all knows when a death has occurred the whole house is considered a crime scene until determined otherwise), going upstairs even if just to get towels and garbage bags(to do what, tamper further with any possible evidence on the victim on top of her having been moved, muddy any dna results, .... ?), washing off evidence(OP), and making off with OP's private cell phone?:facepalm: Those are just some examples of what we know had happened.

 

[lisasalinger]

I think the point is... if you do think there was tampering by anybody... all the more reason for the police to be on the ball and not add to it.
For instance if it was obvious some item was moved after the incident itself... and you could PROVE somebody nipped in and tampered with things. That would be HUGE.. powerful evidence that the defendant (or somebody helping him) had knowledge of guilt. In this case if there is something moved.... it's possible (likely) one of the cops did it.

BBM

Like the primary phone that he was using that night being moved from upstairs to downstairs and then being taken from the scene?

 

[Rumpole]

Obviously the cops can not control what happens before they get to a scene?

Like I say, all the more reason to not alter the scene themselves once they get there. It is standard police practice... for a reason. We are seeing the reason in this case.

Intact crime scene is primarily in the Prosecution's interest. It should be of concern to those who think OP is guilty.

 

[lisasalinger]

I agree that this is troubling and hopefully the cross checking of phone records might uncover the truth.
I would imagine Dr Stipp wouldn't have left until an ambulance arrived. But the paramedics are not there to secure a crime scene.
It is a long time from shooting to when police arrive. Ive had a look at the timelines thread. Who called who, who came when, who left when and add in ambulance and police. It still seems there are bits missing or calls said to be made but don't seem confirmed yet by phone records or witness statements. It seems according to timelines that the ambulance arrived around 3.42 with col Van Resberg arriving shortly after.
I've always been confused about how The Standers got there in an instant. (More teleporting!! ) Still can't understand time of call to Stander ? 3.19 am and time of arrival at house ?3.20-3.23am? - if anyone can clarify? How did they dress and get to house in 1-4 minutes? And other friends, family, lawyer got there very quickly. How many before ambulance and police?

Johan Stander was seen talking on his cell phone outside when Dr. Stipp arrived that night, so he was probably making calls on behalf of Oscar (I'm guessing Carl, Amy and/or Oldwage).

 

[anagrammy]

MeeBee, are you talking about Estelle Van der Merwe's testimony? It was crying that they were talking about, not screaming, I believe.

'Estelle was called to testify about an argument she heard about two hours before the shooting, when, she claimed, she heard a "woman crying".
That was until Roux, who no doubt had seen a statement from her husband, pointed out to her that her husband had told her: "No, that is Oscar crying."
It seems Van der Merwe is one of the witnesses who can attest to Roux's claim that Pistorius sounds like a woman when he screams - and apparently also when he cries.'

I have no problem believing there was crying during arguing two hours before the "event." But screaming and crying have been lumped into one by Roux, not unintentionally I think!

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/201...led-to-testify

I could be wrong, of course, but I do think this is one of Roux's sly tricks to muck things up so if it is believed that it was Oscar crying at that time, then it could have been him screaming during the shooting.

If Roux succeeds in this very uphill battle to convince the judge and assessors that Oscar screams like a woman, he will be the most famous and in-demand defense lawyer in the world, IMO.

hwow:

.

Actually, there is another possibly more significant inference to be made by establishing that Oscar was crying loudly two hours before the shooting. It makes it more likely that Reeva was theatening to break up with him rather than vice versa. It sets the scene for him locking her in the bedroom/bathroom and at some point releasing her and screaming, "Get out of my house" in an attempt to create for himself the ego-saving scenario that he broke it off and threw her out. He punctuates this by throwing her jeans out the window.

In his attempt to keep her from leaving, I believe he struck her and then I believe she had the poor judgment to tell this nutcase that she was going to report what he had done to the police, never realizing that to OP his brand is worth more than her life.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Does anyone think Oscar will actually tell the exact truth about what happened in the early hours of 14/2/13 ???

No, why would he start telling the truth now?

 

[Mystymiss]

I do not believe Oscar will take the stand.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I do not believe Oscar will take the stand.

Ditto.


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[bessie]

Thread #19 is now open.

Trial Discussion Thread #19 - 14.04.07, Day 19 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community