Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[Freya1977]

I just looked at a picture of the blood spatter going down the stairs. That's not arterial blood, IMO. Did an expert say that? It looks to me like just flung droplets, maybe from her hair, as he is carrying her downstairs. It hits the wall and drips down.

I think the first set of bangs killed her. She died in the toilet room. He carried her out of there and downstairs as soon as he opened the door. IMO

There was blood spatter all the way into the lounge from him carrying her down the stairs. Unless he was flinging her around i don't know how blood could have flown that distance.

 

[shane13]

Well some of you people seem to bemedical-degreed people, yes?

Anyway, before I check some reference(s), I recall from a year ago, some statements from one of the EMTs, and possibly allegedly from other previously unnamed sources:

So off the top of my head first:
I believe when an EMT (or someone else?) started try to revive her or such, the previously unnamed doc [Stipp now] is said to have said words to the effect that it would be hopeless because of the head wounds.

I remember this clearly because I then immediately posted here as the first one to infer and state that the head shot was a "through and through" because the unnamed Dr. used the plural. I furthermore stated at the same time that it implied that what we were arguing about was then settled. This was the issue that had been reported that an initial bat strike to her head had occurred.

I said that the physics of the matter [even w.o black talon type bullets] is that the exit wound is going to be much larger than the entrance wound. (Barring abnormal parameters.)

So as I recall w.o.checking, Dr Stip told EMTs or others there that resuscitation would be futile because of massive brain trauma and frankly loss--[Graphic] the pink matter on the toilet seat.

 

[Freya1977]

The doc is describing rigor. What can I say?


Stipp continued: "I tried to assist her. So I tried to open the airway and look for any signs of life. She had no pulse in her neck, she had no peripheral pulse, she had no breathing movements that she made. She was clenching down on Oscar's fingers as he was trying to open her airway.

"I tried to do a jaw lift manoeuvre to open the airway. It was very difficult with the clenching down, and all during that time there wasn't any signs of life that I could see. I opened her right eyelid: the pupil was fixed dilated and the cornea was milky – in other words, it was already drying out. So to me it was obvious she was mortally wounded".

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/oscar-pistorius-trial-doctor-body-reeva-steenkamp


In other words, she was dead, and had been for some time.

The body can experience muscle spasm at time of death. A clenched jaw of a just-deceased person doesn't constitute rigor. She may have had a seizure after that head injury for all we know. The fact is that rigor is a chemical process and it doesn't occur in that time frame. It takes 2 hours plus. This is the science used to establish time of death, because it's reliable. Unless she died hours earlier, she didn't have rigor in her jaw, it was an artifact from the dying process itself.

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[molly333]

There was blood spatter all the way into the lounge from him carrying her down the stairs. Unless he was flinging her around i don't know how blood could have flown that distance.

Even with her dead there would be blood spatter from those wounds as he carried her.

I didn't see anything that indicated to me that she was alive from the time he took her out of the toilet room. I think that head wound was instantly fatal, IMO.

Was there testimony on this?

 

[shane13]

There was blood spatter all the way into the lounge from him carrying her down the stairs. Unless he was flinging her around i don't know how blood could have flown that distance.

ON the BBC3 doc from a year ago, DT's [first] pathologist Dr Perumal stated categorically that IIRC, "One thing I know for sure...she died at the top of the stairs."

That's from memory again before I check reference. But I am certain on this one as to his words or very close to that.

At the time I prob. erred and wrote re first about great blood loss.
I am pretty certain now Perumal's logic is the following--no more blood loss past a certain point on the stairs.

Indeed I posted here a week or more ago, that I hypothesized that OP laid her down on the duvet, which was on the bed at the time, with possilbe plans of carrying her out of the home covered then. Someone countered here & said there was very little blood on the duvet. And I countered that that was prob. just seconds from total heart stoppage. Her heart was barely beating and prob. in serious dysrhythmia when he placed her on the duvet--if he did.

 

[molly333]

The body can experience muscle spasm at time of death. A clenched jaw of a just-deceased person doesn't constitute rigor. She may have had a seizure after that head injury for all we know. The fact is that rigor is a chemical process and it doesn't occur in that time frame. It takes 2 hours plus. This is the science used to establish time of death, because it's reliable. Unless she died hours earlier, she didn't have rigor in her jaw, it was an artifact from the dying process itself.

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Read he doc's description again. She's dead. Dead people don't have seizures. If she was having a seizure, the doc could have done something.

Small muscles of the face show rigor first. Two hours for the full body.



but the body's smaller muscles - such as those in the face, neck, arms and shoulders - are affected first and then the subsequent muscles throughout the rest of the body; those which are larger in size, are affected later.

Rigor normally appears within the body around two hours after the deceased has passed away with - as we have already mentioned - the facial and upper neck and shoulder muscles first to visibly suffer from its effects. Many Scenes of Crime Officers (SOCO) have reported that upon discovering the deceased that their face might have taken on what looks to be a grimace; this is because the facial muscles have contracted as ATP drains from them.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/rigor-mortis-and-lividity.html


This is the 'clenched jaw' the doc is describing, IMO.

 

[TrueDetective]

One of the biggest lies....

He claims he heard the bathroom door opening and somebody coming out. That's why he shot. He says he heard "wood move."

But the door was locked. It wasn't opening.

Great point.

 

[molly333]

Well some of you people seem to bemedical-degreed people, yes?

Anyway, before I check some reference(s), I recall from a year ago, some statements from one of the EMTs, and possibly allegedly from other previously unnamed sources:

So off the top of my head first:
I believe when an EMT (or someone else?) started try to revive her or such, the previously unnamed doc [Stip now] is said to have said words to the effect that it would be hopeless because of the head wounds.

I remember this clearly because I then immediately posted here as the first one to infer and state that the head shot was a "through and through" because the unnamed Dr. used the plural. I furthermore stated at the same time that it implied that what we were arguing about was then settled. This was the issue that had been reported that an initial bat strike to her head had occurred.

I said that the physics of the matter [even w.o black talon type bullets] is that the exit wound is going to be much larger than the entrance wound. (Barring abnormal parameters.)

So as I recall w.o.checking, Dr Stip told EMTs or others there that resuscitation would be futile because of massive brain trauma and frankly loss--[Graphic] the pink matter on the toilet seat.

yeah. That's more corroboration she died in the toilet room. Those were hollow point bullets--deadly, especially to the brain.

 

[Val1]

Even with her dead there would be blood spatter from those wounds as he carried her.

I didn't see anything that indicated to me that she was alive from the time he took her out of the toilet room. I think that head wound was instantly fatal, IMO.

Was there testimony on this?

Iirc, only OP's, which is suspect imo. He claimed she was making the classic gasping sounds as a body takes it's final breaths. However, trying to figure out what time frame that actually happened is part of the controversy, largely due to the sets of sounds and screaming heard at different times by different witnesses.

As for whether that really matters in the grand scheme of trying to figure out whether OP killed her on purpose or by accident, doesn't really make a difference imo.

Either she died in the first set of bangs and then OP sat there for at least 10-20 minutes faffing about, or he did it in the second set and still managed to take about 5 minutes before calling anyone to help, or, if indeed it was rigor mortis and she had been dead for the requisite few hours required for that to happen, he had to have staged everything(screams, shouts, two sets of bangs/shots) following it. All three, imo, means he intended for her to die.

 

[Freya1977]

Read he doc's description again. She's dead. Dead people don't have seizures. If she was having a seizure, the doc could have done something.

Small muscles of the face show rigor first. Two hours for the full body.



but the body's smaller muscles - such as those in the face, neck, arms and shoulders - are affected first and then the subsequent muscles throughout the rest of the body; those which are larger in size, are affected later.

Rigor normally appears within the body around two hours after the deceased has passed away with - as we have already mentioned - the facial and upper neck and shoulder muscles first to visibly suffer from its effects. Many Scenes of Crime Officers (SOCO) have reported that upon discovering the deceased that their face might have taken on what looks to be a grimace; this is because the facial muscles have contracted as ATP drains from them.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/rigor-mortis-and-lividity.html


This is the 'clenched jaw' the doc is describing, IMO.

Yes that's your opinion but it's not scientifically informed. You are failing to understand that ANY rigor takes around two hours to set in. Full rigor takes longer. The small muscles display rigor soonest, at around 2 hour mark.

Are you trying to so she'd been dead almost 2 hours? Or even one hour? If so then all the witnesses are wrong about when the shooting and screaming occurred.

Did I say a dead body had a seizure? of course not. But the body can and does do all sorts of strange things during the dieing process, including clenching muscles such as jaw, fists etc. Especially a traumatic death.

Sorry but the science of death does not allow for rigor mortis in that time frame.

 

[shane13]

The body can experience muscle spasm at time of death. A clenched jaw of a just-deceased person doesn't constitute rigor. She may have had a seizure after that head injury for all we know. The fact is that rigor is a chemical process and it doesn't occur in that time frame. It takes 2 hours plus. This is the science used to establish time of death, because it's reliable. Unless she died hours earlier, she didn't have rigor in her jaw, it was an artifact from the dying process itself.

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Maybe I can shed some light.

Don't just focus on dying Reeva.
Use my "guilty man" logic above. OP--in front of others--is desperately putting on an act of trying to appear to save her. (Which an innocent man in the accident scenario would not be doing.)

A few weeks ago, I likened his fingers in her mouth to a scene in the movie, Internal Affairs.

Richard Gere plays a crooked cop who just shot his partner. He did not die soon enough for Gere. As the anbulance approaches, Gere pretends to do mouth to mouth, but is really strangling him.

Here OP may have forced his finger(s) in just for show. Or even maybe if she were still gasping, he started his fingers in her mouth as soon as he was seen, and she died and clamped on his fingers shortly after this?

(I don't think she could have been dead for 2 hours given all the other info and wnesses.)

 

[TrueDetective]

Hi all,

Just a few observations from me. I don't have internet at home so have to rush through all the information so apologies if i am going over old ground.

* if you go to get your gun because you think there is an intruder i'm sure you would have the time to get up close and personal with the person you assume is laying near to that gun to warn them/ask them if they heard something. That would be the time to whisper to them, not when you are half way down the hall. Still struggling with the fact OP claims to not know his GF is in the room with him.
correct

* when scared/threatened the first thing i think most would do would be seek reassurance/opinion/guidance of a loved one in the same room.
correct

* if OP is very unstable on his stumps i would assume he would have the time to put on his legs just as he had time to grab his gun (i assume he had to walk to the side of the bed), or else he would feel vulnerable. If you feel vulnerable you do what you can to feel less vulnerable. Vulnerable enough to grab your gun, vulnerable enough to put on your legs.
correct

* I get that fear can make people irrational, but if you have a gun you have the upper hand. You don't need to be in close contact to fire a gun, especially if you are competent at it. You can wait to see who you are shooting at. If i was un armed and someone was climbing into my house i would hit them to kill because i'd need to be in close contact to protect myself and my kids...if i had a gun i'd have the luxury of standing back and waiting, warning them, GTFO or you are dead. Not the same as if you are in close, personal contact with an intruder and have to fight to survive.
correct
* Surely the poor girl screamed.
correct
* I am a hot head, when i crack i crack and i am always sorry afterwards and wish i handled it better. I have never been violent but i yell, yell, yell so i can understand that when you go into a rage it makes you do things (or in my case say things) that you regret with all your heart. I don't think OP wanted Reeva dead and i believe he is very remorseful, but i think rage took over and in the heat of the moment he didn't care about consequences.
I would tend to agree
Very tragic indeed.

Welcome and I think you're bang on with your overview.

 

[molly333]

Yes that's your opinion but it's not scientifically informed. You are failing to understand that ANY rigor takes around two hours to set in. Full rigor takes longer. The small muscles display rigor soonest, at around 2 hour mark.

Are you trying to so she'd been dead almost 2 hours? Or even one hour? If so then all the witnesses are wrong about when the shooting and screaming occurred.

Did I say a dead body had a seizure? of course not. But the body can and does do all sorts of strange things during the dieing process, including clenching muscles such as jaw, fists etc. Especially a traumatic death.

Sorry but the science of death does not allow for rigor mortis in that time frame.

I'm failing to understand it because I've seen it in other cases, and the doc is describing it. But, looks like we disagree.

No. I don't think she died two hours before. She would be in full rigor, then.

I think she died 20 to 30 minutes before.

 

[Freya1977]

Maybe I can shed some light.

Don't just focus on dying Reeva.
Use my "guilty man" logic above. OP--in front of others--is desperately putting on an act of trying to appear to save her. (Which an innocent man in the accident scenario would not be doing.)

A few weeks ago, I likened his fingers in her mouth to a scene in the movie, Internal Affairs.

Richard Gere plays a crooked cop who just shot his partner. He did not die soon enough for Gere. As the anbulance approaches, Gere pretends to do mouth to mouth, but is really strangling him.

Here OP may have forced his finger(s) in just for show. Or even maybe if she were still gasping,h e started his fingers in her mouth as soon as he was seen, and she died and clamped on his fingers shortly after this?

(I don't think she could have been dead for 2 hours given all the other info and wnesses.)

Yes this idea crossed my mind as a reason for the clenched jaw as well. biting down in a last ditch effort with those fingers down her throat.

 

[Freya1977]

I'm failing to understand it because I've seen it in other cases, and the doc is describing it. But, looks like we disagree.

No. I don't think she died two hours before. She would be in full rigor, then.

I think she died 20 to 30 minutes before.

Rigor doesn't begin in 20 to 30 minutes. It begins after around 2 hours, and full rigor isn't usually apparent till around TWELVE HOURS.

The 2 hour mark you are reading IS talking the beginning of rigor, not full rigor. Sorry to be a bore, but if you want to argue the facts....


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[zwiebel]

In his testimony yesterday, OP very briefly mentioned - when explaining why he wasn't concerned the downstairs window hadn't been fixed immediately - that 'the latch couldn't be opened from the outside anyway'.

I'm wondering if the upstairs windows were the same, and if so, why he'd think he heard intruders sliding it open, from the outside?

 

[molly333]

Iirc, only OP's, which is suspect imo. He claimed she was making the classic gasping sounds as a body takes it's final breaths. However, trying to figure out what time frame that actually happened is part of the controversy, largely due to the sets of sounds and screaming heard at different times by different witnesses.

As for whether that really matters in the grand scheme of trying to figure out whether OP killed her on purpose or by accident, doesn't really make a difference imo.

Either she died in the first set of bangs and then OP sat there for at least 10-20 minutes faffing about, or he did it in the second set and still managed to take about 5 minutes before calling anyone to help, or, if indeed it was rigor mortis and she had been dead for the requisite few hours required for that to happen, he had to have staged everything(screams, shouts, two sets of bangs/shots) following it. All three, imo, means he intended for her to die.

The prosecution did not put a Coroner or the equivalent on the stand? No blood spatter expert? wow. They are basing time of death on screams and shots and Oscar's testimony? wow.

But, didn't somebody talk about stomach contents?

Notice the doc says the eye had started to dry out--that's what causes the cloudy eyes. And the clenched jaw, the beginnings of rigor in the small facial muscles. That tells me she had been dead for a while. Two hours for full rigor--she wasn't there yet.

I would think Oscar would have had to have known she was dead when he opened that door. But, there's no accounting for denial and grief.

 

[weeeva]

Which is mind boggling. Why turn off the alarm? Why not run downstairs and let it go off, so it would bring some more help to him?

To prevent multiple false alarms it has to be ingrained in the mind to switch an system off before going through the particular zones, otherwise there would be a lot of false alarms coming from that house and everyone's house for that matter, even our own. It is an action done automatically, without having to think about it. So it is possible that he can not remember physically doing it. It could be as automatic as filling a kettle and then switching it on.

 

[shane13]

Rigor mortis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In humans, it commences after about three to four hours, reaches maximum stiffness after 12 hours, and gradually dissipates from approximately 24 hours after death..."

 

[shane13]

The prosecution did not put a Coroner or the equivalent on the stand? No blood spatter expert? wow. They are basing time of death on screams and shots and Oscar's testimony? wow.

But, didn't somebody talk about stomach contents?

Notice the doc says the eye had started to dry out--that's what causes the cloudy eyes. And the clenched jaw, the beginnings of rigor in the small facial muscles. That tells me she had been dead for a while. Two hours for full rigor--she wasn't there yet.

I would think Oscar would have had to have known she was dead when he opened that door. But, there's no accounting for denial and grief.

Pros put on Dr Saayman, a forensic pathologist.
(Pronounced like Simon I believe.)