Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[TorisMom003]

did OP put Reeva down to open his bedroom door/pick up keys?
Would be hard to do holding dead weight.

OP's claim is that he dragged her out of the toilet room into the bathroom. Gently putting her head down on the carpet/rug. Then left to go get the phone to make those calls. Still leaving her on the bathroom floor he opened his bedroom door to go downstairs and open the front door. Then OP came back upstairs, picked up Reeva and started to head downstairs.

 

[molly333]

As they did walk through house at beginning of trial....they walked past small lounge area upstairs, past yoga mat, towards bedroom door. Bedroom door had a 4mm hole though it, outside to inside of bedroom, and had this damage and damage to bottom panel of swinging door of the set of two, remember..wheel chair friendly doors on the second floor with no lift lol!, and behind the door was an air rifle with silencer attachment& a baseball bat.

yikes. I didn't know that. Thanks.

 

[K.T]

I’ve seen the comment “hand bag fight” before from Pistorius supporters here. It’s usually as some sort of criticism of commentators who suspect or think Pistorius is lying and his lack of credibility and already shaky version of events makes him seem guilty of murder.

I believe in the presumption of innocence court but in day-to-day life, and certainly on Websleuths, I believe in presumption of common sense and intelligence.

“Hand bag fight” is a sexist comment and I find it telling because people who use it tend to disregard aggression and volatility as one being one of the behavioral patterns of Pistorius.

There are many continually sharp observations from intense study of the evidence from most of the commentators of here; many have posted cogent, logical theories with research and statistics. I find it interesting that Pistorius supporters do not seem to see that as logical or analysis.

Also saying Nel is “not as daft as he seems” is greatly off the mark. A wide, large legal majority sees his approach as incisive and relentless. There is criticism is that his minute questioning of Pistorius may be off-putting and make the defendant sympathetic for the Judge but the legal consensus is that this strategy is getting results in favour of the prosecution. Pistorius credibility is looking worse and worse over the last three days of cross-examination.

Roux and Nel have a healthy respect from each other confirmed by journalist legal associates who know both. They have faced each other in court before, Nel knows Roux’s strategy and vice versa. That’s why Nel told Pistoirus that his legal team would never have given him certain advice when Pistorius tries to blame Roux.

Most people can see that Pistorius is creating a trap of his own making. Pistorius, through arrogance, ignorance or hubris, is starting to go against the system - prosecution and even his own defense team. Roux will get him back at the wrap up and with the defense witnesses but damage has been done already.

 

[Gavel Rash]

Oscar claims to have put Reevas head on a rug...is it the rug her head is photographed on the patterned black white one? Because bathroom shot shows a very bloody towel near bat that I think her head may have been on. Also the towel has the door panel on top of it? Work that out if he pulled panel out. First why is it on top of towel? Would it not be under towel?

 

[Gavel Rash]

Towel near cricket at in bathroom

 

[Carmelita]

I'm with Minor, I've never heard the term before.

 

[minor4th]

Because she was a sweet girl. She had no desire to hurt him.

I'm basing this in part on the emails, in part on the interviews with her friends, in part on her age and maturity and unwillingness to give up her own life for a man.

Wasn't his last girlfriend 17?

This is a 29 year old woman with a law degree and a modeling career that is taking off. How different is that?

He is an athlete who has to control and manage every minute of his day to be successful. A woman in his life has to dance to his tune because he has no margin of error for even himself. They were like night and day.

They did seem to be quite different.

Anyone know why Reeva didn't use her law degree?

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Do we know anything abt the other police officer taking photos at the same time with Van Staden who the DT accused for great disturbance to the images ? Van Staden insisted that he took the before and after pictures of a few items (towels, duvet no mention of fans ) and he insisted that he worked alone.
That is very interesting imo and the defence case depends on that a lot..
A family friend police officer that OP mentioned came to help him and he was also near him sitting somewhere in the car while leaving the house ( a lot of details given and what was his signifcance in his testimony ?
I wonder if someone deliberately moved a few items and took their photos after van staden to discredit the police evidence ..

 

[kittychi]

I'm almost certain in my own mind that this is what he did .. I don't believe he was on his stumps and shot with his gun held up with arms straight out in front of him and using a sight line .. I think he was on his p.legs and did it from the hip in order to make it look as if he was on his stumps at the time of the shooting.

That makes sense to me. I don't know anything about guns, but I am surmising the one he used is quite powerful. It would evoke quite a recoil, no? And could throw him off balance if he was on his stumps.

The powerful gun and being wobbly on stumps just don't go together.

 

[minor4th]

Yep, my thoughts as well.

Its the only missing piece of the puzzle left for me.

I'm surprised Dr. Stipp didn't mention what time he arrived though.

I'm keen to see what Stander says.

I don't think Dr Stipp really knew what time he arrived, but there were phone records and testimony that as of 3:24 Stander, Stipp and Baba had arrived at Oscar's house

 

[Viper]

As they did walk through house at beginning of trial....they walked past small lounge area upstairs, past yoga mat, towards bedroom door. Bedroom door had a 4mm hole though it, outside to inside of bedroom, and had this damage and damage to bottom panel of swinging door of the set of two, remember..wheel chair friendly doors on the second floor with no lift lol!, and behind the door was an air rifle with silencer attachment& a baseball bat.

Hi Gavel! Hey, the BIB, are you sure about that? When I looked at this the air rifle pellet was fired from within the bedroom to the outside. Would you mind rechecking?

Look at all of the photos of the hole in the door. The entry point is a tiny hole, but the exit point shows pieces of the wood torn off, and that is IIRC on the outside of the bedroom door.

 

[Gavel Rash]

I'm with Minor, I've never heard the term before.

They use it all the time in Australian politics..a derogatory, sexist term to negate the feminine side of an argument as being a cat fight...and of little value to serious men arguments.

 

[minor4th]

That makes sense to me. I don't know anything about guns, but I am surmising the one he used is quite powerful. It would evoke quite a recoil, no? And could throw him off balance if he was on his stumps.

The powerful gun and being wobbly on stumps just don't go together.

A 9 mm is definitely a powerful gun and does have recoil. OP said that he was bracing himself against the wall where the carpet meets the tile, and that seems to explain it - otherwise I would think he couldn't make 4 shots without stumbling or falling over.

 

[minor4th]

They use it all the time in Australian politics..a derogatory, sexist term to negate the feminine side of an argument as being a cat fight...and of little value to serious men arguments.

What exactly is it supposed to mean?

 

[Gavel Rash]

Hi Gavel! Hey, the BIB, are you sure about that? When I looked at this the air rifle pellet was fired from within the bedroom to the outside. Would you mind rechecking?

Look at all of the photos of the hole in the door. The entry point is a tiny hole, but the exit point shows pieces of the wood torn off, and that is IIRC on the outside of the bedroom door.

Show me a pic! I was sure so else on forum had looked at that and said otherwise, but I am happy to be corrected! I am still trying to work out though what would have caused those marks?

 

[Gavel Rash]

What exactly is it supposed to mean?

Piss weak, weak wristed, girls blouse argument of no value, just a side show.

 

[minor4th]

Do we know anything abt the other police officer taking photos at the same time with Van Staden who the DT accused for great disturbance to the images ? Van Staden insisted that he took the before and after pictures of a few items (towels, duvet no mention of fans ) and he insisted that he worked alone.
That is very interesting imo and the defence case depends on that a lot..
A family friend police officer that OP mentioned came to help him and he was also near him sitting somewhere in the car while leaving the house ( a lot of details given and what was his signifcance in his testimony ?
I wonder if someone deliberately moved a few items and took their photos after van staden to discredit the police evidence ..

I would really like to know more about this as well.

The police officer who was also taking pictures when Van Staden was supposed to be alone was Col Motha, but I don't think that's the officer who showed up and was friendly with OP.

 

[Freya1977]

Because she was a sweet girl. She had no desire to hurt him.

I'm basing this in part on the emails, in part on the interviews with her friends, in part on her age and maturity and unwillingness to give up her own life for a man.

Wasn't his last girlfriend 17?

This is a 29 year old woman with a law degree and a modeling career that is taking off. How different is that?

He is an athlete who has to control and manage every minute of his day to be successful. A woman in his life has to dance to his tune because he has no margin of error for even himself. They were like night and day.

The gift was a photo frame with 4 pictures of them together in it. I highly doubt she'd give him such a thing intending to dump him. It would kind of be rubbing salt in the wound don't you think?

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

 

[minor4th]

Unless someone finds a video or audio recording of that evening's events, no one can ever say definitely that an argument DID or DID NOT take place, let alone what any argument was about.

If murderers could only be found guilty on genuine recorded evidence or eye-witnesses reports, many now convicted murders would be free.

Without direct evidence/eye witness reports, an argument could certainly be proved by circumstantial evidence, and that is what the State is trying to do.

The problem is, it takes several pieces of circumstantial evidence to really prove something (usually) and the State doesn't seem to have the evidence.

If they had witnesses hearing an argument between a man and woman and could identify it as coming from Oscar's house, or if they had text messages that indicated that an argument was going on, that would go a long way towards proving an argument by circumstantial evidence. All the state has though is one witness who heard a woman's voice talking loudly - maybe arguing - but she couldn't hear the other side and couldn't identify it as coming from Oscar's house.

The other way they could come closer to proving that there was an argument leading up to the shooting is if they can prove that Oscar's version could not have possibly happened. That's what I'm waiting for - to see if they can really undermine his account.

 

[Gavel Rash]

Hi Gavel! Hey, the BIB, are you sure about that? When I looked at this the air rifle pellet was fired from within the bedroom to the outside. Would you mind rechecking?

Look at all of the photos of the hole in the door. The entry point is a tiny hole, but the exit point shows pieces of the wood torn off, and that is IIRC on the outside of the bedroom door.

I'm looking for it but.....this so far...
Photos of the main bedroom door, displayed on screens in court, show a large crack at the bottom of the door near a locking mechanism, a hole about 4mm in diameter through the door, and marks on the edge of the door.
Another photo shows a splinter, about 5cm long according to a ruler placed on the door when the photo was taken, torn off the door.
The hole is on the outside of the bedroom door.
“Why did you not take a photo? You were right there?” Roux asked.
Van Staden replied: “I used my discretion to take the photos… it [the damage] can’t be destroyed or removed.”
He said he wanted to first focus on taking photos of evidence that could be moved, such as the panels of the toilet door lying on the bathroom floor.