Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[Viper]

I know that this wasn't addressed to me so I hope you don't mind me butting in here, but, I really think the judge is viewing OP with a lot of charity in her heart for him. I may be wrong but that is the read I am getting from her demeanor and questions.

I believe if she can find any way to lawfully slap OP on the wrist that is what she will do. He was the face of SA for a while and that IMO is going to figure into her decision. I still think that the bar of "reasonable" is going to be lowered due to OP's disability.

JMO

BIB. What exactly is OPs disability? He can walk, right? He can run, right? He can shoot his gun accurately, right? He can kill his girlfriend, right? What disability does OP have that will cause the judge to throw aside the law and give him "a slap on the wrist?"

OP has a deformity, amputations resulted. Yes, they are likely grotesque at first sight. But OP has prosthetics and he has full mobility. So much so that he was capable of competing against full bodied men in the Olympics. So again, what exactly is OPs "disability?"

BTW. Disability means that a man is unable to do something. What is OP unable to do?

 

[Magdalyn]

Now "cat fight" I'm familiar with.

Lol, I hope not through personal experience! :slapfight:

 

[Gavel Rash]

I don't have an issue with him not taking a picture of the hole until the second day - I mean, I don't think the hole was planted by the police or anything.

As far as taking pictures before anything was moved, I think it's been sufficiently shown that the photographs are not reliable as depictions of the crime scene immediately after the incident. For one thing, Van Rensburg and Botha both went through the crime scene before Van Staden started taking pictures. For another thing, it turns out Van Staden was not alone when he was taking pictures - Col Motha was there right along side him taking additional pictures.

And how and on whose direction would the case be chucked by now if all this evidence was moved? You think the prosecution is going to dismiss their case because their crime scene photos aren't reliable? No way.

Nor do I believe that anything was moved sufficient to damage the case that Oscar killed Reeva in a premeditated act. Although Oscar is adamant that he will get off on this fact. So lets wait and see.

 

[Linda7NJ]

State of mind or relationship.

I think the dressed dead girlfriend that was shot behind a closed door is the best evidence of state of mind. IMO
That and the fact he didn't immediately call for medical assistance...


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[sorrell skye]

Well, if they want to fully investigate the circumstances that led to the killing, you would think they would want to know as much as possible about the relationship. They'd want to read the card from her and see what kind of present she gave him.

But it seems that the investigators and prosecution just ignored any potential evidence that might have undermined the conclusion they jumped to.

But Reeva is not on trial for murder. OP is.

Does the fact that Reeva gave OP a V-Day gift mean that he couldn't have possibly meant to kill her? Is that what is being implied?

Reeva was loving to OP, so he couldn't have intentionally killed her?

Plenty of loving women are murdered by their intimate partners every day.

 

[minor4th]

Lol, I hope not through personal experience! :slapfight:

No comment :shutup:

 

[minor4th]

Nor do I believe that anything was moved sufficient to damage the case that Oscar killed Reeva in a premeditated act. Although Oscar is adamant that he will get off on this fact. So lets wait and see.

I don't think the compromised crime scene really does anything other than make the photos unreliable. So when Nel is questioning OP about the location of the fan and the plugs and the duvet and the jeans being on top of the duvet - it's kind of a pointless exercise because those photos are not reliable.

There's no way to know exactly what was moved and by whom and at what time.

 

[Rumpole]

The infamous photo showing duvet.

I put it to you......

There is no logical reason why somebody in the course of normal duvet use would spread out a duvet like that. I see no other likely explanation other than a police photographer might well do that in order to photograph the duvet (brown spots)

The photographer clearly DID at some point take a photo of brown spots on the duvet.

In my own experience, I have known the duvet to fall off the end of the bed or be pushed off on a hot night... but it NEVER then spreads itself out as shown in the photo. Not once has this ever happened. Talk about something that "does not make sense"

Given that the area where the duvet has been spread out is the only area big enough in that part of the room, and given that the fans were exactly where OP says... the Cops would have had to move the fans before spreading out the duvet. Unless they unplugged the large fan, they would have to move it (and its lead) closer to the extension lead double socket. Exactly where the fan is shown in the photo. The small fan looks to have been plugged in near the HiFi etc... and was moved towards the corner (as shown in subsequent photos)

Given that the cops most certainly DID move items... and contaminate the crime scene, then one CAN NOT rely on photos, certainly not details that are only known from photos. The cops and prosecution created this problem for themselves. It is their burden to overcome the unreliability of evidence, especially any photos they took.

 

[minor4th]

But Reeva is not on trial for murder. OP is.

Does the fact that Reeva gave OP a V-Day gift mean that he couldn't have possibly meant to kill her? Is that what is being implied?

Reeva was loving to OP, so he couldn't have intentionally killed her?

Plenty of loving women are murdered by their intimate partners every day.

No, that's not at all what's being implied.

I think you're kind of missing the overall point - an investigation includes victimology and finding out as much info as possible about the relationship. I mean, what if the card had said "I love you like a friend, but I can't date you any more" or something that might have told them something relevant about the relationship?

 

[Carmelita]

BIB. What exactly is OPs disability? He can walk, right? He can run, right? He can't shoot his gun accurately, right? He can kill his girlfriend, right? What disability does OP have that will cause the judge to throw aside the law and give him "a slap on the wrist?"

OP has a deformity, amputations resulted. Yes, they are likely grotesque at first sight. But OP has prosthetics and he has full mobility. So much so that he was capable of competing against full bodied men in the Olympics. So again, what exactly is OPs "disability?"

BTW. Disability means that a man is unable to do something. What is OP unable to do?

He is unable to do many things that an able bodied person can do when he does not have on his prosthetics. He is disabled made more able by gadgets but he still has a disability. Heck he even competed in the Special Olympics after the Olympics.

He was hyper vigilant about his own safety, that has been established (IMO) by past behavior, part of his defense is that his hyper vigilance comes from his feeling of vulnerability due to his disability.

 

[Carmelita]

Nor do I believe that anything was moved sufficient to damage the case that Oscar killed Reeva in a premeditated act. Although Oscar is adamant that he will get off on this fact. So lets wait and see.

Playing devils advocate here, but what if someone moved a fan to the doorway so that they could cool down the room, an evidence gatherer gets just as hot as anyone else.

I am not saying this happened but if I was OP's attorney I would surely suggest it as a possibility.

 

[minor4th]

If there's going to be any kind of "reasonable person" test applied, they are not going to compare Oscar to an able bodied man. That would be an absurd application of any legal test.

They will compare a reasonable person under similar conditions and circumstances - and that includes having no legs, having been a crime victim, and everything else about the circumstances and what Oscar said led to his shooting his gun at the bathroom door.

 

[wb180]

He is unable to do many things that an able bodied person can do when he does not have on his prosthetics. He is disabled made more able by gadgets but he still has a disability. Heck he even competed in the Special Olympics after the Olympics.

He was hyper vigilant about his own safety, that has been established (IMO) by past behavior, part of his defense is that his hyper vigilance comes from his feeling of vulnerability due to his disability.

But he chose to be disabled when he went to confront intruder. Can't give him a lesser burden if he chose to do that.

Oh also means he is not hyper vigilant to his own safety.

 

[shane13]

My first trial was in 1992. I was 15 and living in Milwaukee. One of my friends had been friends with Jeffrey Dahmer's youngest victim. Have been an avid trial junkie since and it's something I've never seen either.

thanks for your reply.
And my sympathies for your friend and the deceased person's family.

I hope he wasn't the poor young man who police gave back naked to Dahmer?

 

[sorrell skye]

No, that's not at all what's being implied.

I think you're kind of missing the overall point - an investigation includes victimology and finding out as much info as possible about the relationship. I mean, what if the card had said "I love you like a friend, but I can't date you any more" or something that might have told them something relevant about the relationship?

Ah - I get your point. But as it turns out - Reeva's gift was a photo album of pics of the two of them.

The card didn't say "I love you like a friend", did it?

 

[Carmelita]

Whose state of mind? Reeva's? Reeva is dead at the hands of OP.

How is her Valentine's gift going to offer insight to OP's state of mind? He's the one on trial for murder, not Reeva.

Sorry I thought the card from Reeva was being discussed. So whatever was written in the card would possibly give insight into their relationship. If it was an adios card it might lend credence to the idea that Reeva and Oscar fought that night as she was intending to leave him.

I believe that the gift of photographs of Reeva and OP together gives insight into the relationship in that when Reeva put the gift together she was not thinking of ending the relationship.

 

[minor4th]

Ah - I get your point. But as it turns out - Reeva's gift was a photo album of pics of the two of them.

The card didn't say "I love you like a friend", did it?

I have no idea what it said - that's why I'm surprised they didn't collect all of that and have a look at it.

 

[minor4th]

But he chose to be disabled when he went to confront intruder. Can't give him a lesser burden if he chose to do that.

Oh also means he is not hyper vigilant to his own safety.

Oscar did not choose to be disabled!

And no, it doesn't mean that he is not paranoid about intruders. Are you suggesting that he should always sleep with his proths on in case he has to fire a gun at an intruder?

 

[Viper]

He is unable to do many things that an able bodied person can do when he does not have on his prosthetics. He is disabled made more able by gadgets but he still has a disability. Heck he even competed in the Special Olympics after the Olympics.

He was hyper vigilant about his own safety, that has been established (IMO) by past behavior, part of his defense is that his hyper vigilance comes from his feeling of vulnerability due to his disability.

Non responsive. Lots of words, but they are not related to the questions. Shall we go back and start over again?

 

[Carmelita]

But he chose to be disabled when he went to confront intruder. Can't give him a lesser burden if he chose to do that.

Sure she can. His defense is, heat of the moment, he feared for his life and Reeva's life, he went immediately went into fight mode, he did not make a choice to not put on his prosthetics he simply acted out of instinct. If pressed at all (if he admits to "making a choice") which I doubt he will do, he could say that he thought that the risk of the time lost putting on his prosthetics outweighed the risk of facing the "intruder" without them.