Trial Thread 4/5/2012

[Sailor Bug]

What is the significance of the pea coat?
according to McClintic's testimony, Tori was covered in a pea coat while in Rafferty's back seat.

 

[captaincanada]

...but it's not workin':floorlaugh:

I know, it's weak for the most part.

 

[Sailor Bug]

Jury returning to court for afternoon session; Scoyne remains on the stand with Crown questioning.

RaffertyLFP: Scoyne again describing the process of holding vehicles at forensic science centre.

Jury has returned.

Scoyne describing where the cars were put to be searched.

 

[snoofer]

am thinkin...did Williams, Bernardo or Wills listen to that music too? Now if defense could proove THAT and TLM listened to it...then they might be onto something. IMO

 

[Sailor Bug]

Scoyne says more than just OPP interacted with Rafferty's car; says it is a rarity that a search happens in Tillsonburg rather than Toronto

Scoyne describing the OPP Centre for Forensic Sciences in Tillsonburg; was 1.5 years old and state-of-the-art at time of Rafferty arrest.

Scoyne explaining the layout of the facility the OPP uses to search cars.

Const. Scoyne is now talking about searching thru #Rafferty's car. Typically, car would've been brought to dt Toronto to be examined

 

[roseofsharon]

So post murder, did MTR promise TLM he would never ever tell?

IMO, the more likely scenario is they had a pact. She had something on him and he had something on her, both crimes punishable by life prison terms, so each would stay silent.

They both thought they were too smart for LE, thought they had covered all the bases, but one huge detail got in their way ... the video of Oliver Stephens School.

MOO

 

[swedie]

"She would do anything for a little bit of love." And MR knew it. I wouldn't put it past him to have opened the trunk, got out the garbage bags, put on over Tori's head and I can see him handing TLM the hammer, saying your turn. Remember "We can't keep her and we can't take her back"? He knew what he was doing and planted that seed in TLM's head she was going to be just as involved in this as he was. HTH :moo:

I think Derstine will continue to focus on the music as it tells a story of what happened to little TS. He wants to keep reminding them the type of person TLM was. I really dont think he has anything else to go on so I think that is all we will hear

There are many people that listen to Necro and I think that because of the words used in the song makes it relevant to what he is trying to prove. I dont think the music had anything to do with it personally.

The book that Ann rule wrote about the mother who tried to kill all three of her children but one survived they claimed the song "hungry like a wolf" was playing and that is what made her go crazy and try to kill her children. I just dont buy it.

I listen to Eminem and some of his lyrics are graphic but the song lose yourself does get me pumped for some reason. I just dont see any music getting someone that pumped up to commit a murder as bad as this one was.

Her focus was not on children it was on other adults anyone who had authority or anyone that dissed her.

What needs to be established is the real reason TS was kidnapped to begin with. I still dont think it was random at all. Then it comes to the car drive, who really said what about purchasing the bags and hammer, then the sexual assault did it really happen? And if we all really believe that TLM killed Tori.

If I go by what I have heard I have no choice but to believe that it was TLM because of her anger issues, but why would she do it? I just dont get it.

 

[Ardy]

I agree - but in the US, both sides have to share the evidence - it is called Discovery. The defense is required to give the State any evidence that exonerates their client - or any evidence they have that does not exonerate their client.

For exampe - if MR gave his attorney some piece of evidence (I'll say gun because we all know there was NO gun used and this is just an example), the attorney has to turn that gun over to the State. They can not hide it from the prosecution, they cannot wipe fingerprints off or destroy any evidence the gun may have on it. They don't have to say where they got the gun - but they have to share it with the prosecution. The defense also has to give the Prosecution any evidence they will be using in the trial to exonerate their client. And vice versa for the Prosecution - they must share with the defense all evidence they have that they will be using to prosecute.

Canada seems to be very similar to the states - so I was surprised that the defense would not have to share.

Salem

As I recall, the lawyer for PB got himself into some trouble over not turning over the video tapes he found. I think he may have been exonerated though, and not required to turn over the tapes.

Otherwise, our law can vary from Province to Province.

As one generic example.......in some jurisdictions LE have to produce all evidence to a Crown and the Crown makes the determination on the laying of charges.

From what I understand, in Ontario the police lay the charges first, and then package their evidence to the Crown.....JMO

 

[Sailor Bug]

RaffertyLFP: Now seeing photos of Rafferty's car outside of the Tillsonburg facility; rear windows are tinted, front are not

Showing the driver's side of the vehicle.

In this case, scientists came to OPP centre in Tillsonburg in an "unusual" move to protect possible evidence on/in car #ToriStafford

 

[nobodyzgirl]

Really - the defense in Canada is not subject to Discovery rules? WOW!

Salem

The only time the Defence has to disclose any material item is if it's crucial like the hammer with blood on it.

 

[Sailor Bug]

RaffertyLFP: Now seeing the car inside the bay of the identification compound; exterior features "unusual" paint job

Showi g photos of the vehicle from all sides. Police put it in a bay to be searched.

RaffertyLFP: Scoyne says tire tread impressions were taken as is generally the case with such investigations

 

[SideKick]

am thinkin...did Williams, Bernardo or Wills listen to that music too? Now if defense could proove THAT and TLM listened to it...then they might be onto something. IMO

Snoofer, I doubt it. Firstly, that music wasn't big when Bernardo was free and being ugly. Williams, too old and no reason to listen to rap/hip hop. Not sure who Wills is? Again tho, all in all music means nothing for the most part, however if the defense keeps pushing these songs with lyric's regular folk don't want to hear then it is sending a message to the juror's that this music maybe a factor into TLM's outlook towards her life/society. . . . (my daughter came from that era, hip hop / rap... she's now in 2nd year nursing, married with twins and is as straight as an arrow... well, not that straight! LOL

 

[Tahorn]

am thinkin...did Williams, Bernardo or Wills listen to that music too? Now if defense could proove THAT and TLM listened to it...then they might be onto something. IMO

Lets face it ... music does inflluence your frame of mind, your emotions. Listening to a love song may make you cry if you are already sad ... so why wouldn't evil murderous music contribute to a angry vindictive violant persons frame of mind.

 

[Sailor Bug]

The back window and rear door windows of Rafferty's car were tinted. Front door windows were not.

RaffertyLFP: Scoyne says tire tread impressions were taken as is generally the case with such investigations

Showing Rafferty's tires. He had winters when he was arrested.

 

[crazyladi]

am thinkin...did Williams, Bernardo or Wills listen to that music too? Now if defense could proove THAT and TLM listened to it...then they might be onto something. IMO

I cant speak for the Music as I cant remember but Bernardo was a huge fan of Jason and nightmare on elm street. Maybe we need to see what movies MR and TLM were into??

 

[Sailor Bug]

RaffertyLFP: Winter tires were installed at a North Bay Canadian Tire, receipt is for a Mychol (sic) Rafferty.

Rafferty had the tires installed on Dec. 17/08 in Woodstock. Police have the receipt.

Winter tires were installed at a North Bay Canadian Tire, receipt is for a Mychol (sic) Rafferty

 

[Juris_Prudence]

They had the ipod for almost 3yrs and didn't examine it until a few days ago? :waitasec:

Wondering if they examined it as a result of Derstine's cross of TLM or whether it was examined before that point?
:moo:

 

[Oldsoul2]

The back window and rear door windows of Rafferty's car were tinted. Front door windows were not.

RaffertyLFP: Scoyne says tire tread impressions were taken as is generally the case with such investigations

Showing Rafferty's tires. He had winters when he was arrested.

How convenient

 

[snoofer]

I cant speak for the Music as I cant remember but Bernardo was a huge fan of Jason and nightmare on elm street. Maybe we need to see what movies MR and TLM were into??

Charles Manson=Helter Skelter. How many young people listened to Helter Skelter unscathed.

 

[maxfactor]

I don't think the defence is necessarily trying to suggest that the music made TLM do anything, they are simply trying to drill into the juror's heads TLM's character.....Here is a nasty piece of work, a wannabe gangster, someone who listens to hard, violent, disturbing gangster rap, someone who writes disturbing, violent, sadistic letters about killing and raping and torturing others. Someone who has a known history of violence and trouble with the law.Someone who also has just testified to "savagely killing that little girl". Someone who is on video abducting that same girl. Someone who is on video buying the murder weapon used to kill that same girl.

Now here is MTR, someone who has NO criminal record, NO history of violence, someone who doesn't listen to violent gangster rap (that we know of). Someone who is NOT on video leading a girl away from school, is NOT on video buying a murder weapon. Someone who the crown can't prove that he sexually assaulted Tori. etc. etc. Someone who simply is guilty of getting mixed up with the wrong "murderous *****".

The defence doesn't have to prove that TLM did everything, they just have to prove that there is reasonable doubt about the charges, and so far, there is reasonable doubt.

JMO but I don't think anyone in Canada buys the no criminal record, no history of violence thing anymore thanks to R Williams.