Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[giantalkinghead]

I have been thinking about the remote farm lane and found myself wondering about some things.

IF MR knew about this farm lane from his work in the area, it is quite probable that he knew about many others in the area.

Why would he pick a lane that was right across from a house? Anyone from that house could have seen him to in and called the farmer.

People living in the country know who owns the land around them, and will tell each other if they spot someone entering someone else's land.

Often, the land owners are concerned with illegal dumping and don't want their property to become home for cast away junk or construction material.

The lane is also quite narrow and only one lane for the majority of it.

If the farmer had pulled down that lane in his truck..........MR had nowhere to go.

No farmer is simply going to go in and listen to a BS answer and drive away.

They would take a look around and then follow the people out, while noting their licence plate number.

In my opinion, MR took a big chance going down that lane, if his intention was to be there awhile.

JMO..............

I've thought of that as well... Why that field ??

Woodstock IS Farmland area... Why drive all the way to Mt. Forest to do the deed ?.... stopping off at a drug pick up and a cup of Tea at Tim Horton's... What the heck ?? It dosn't add up for me.

I just don't buy the Rape theory. That's not to say he isn't guilty of Kidnapping and therefore 1st degree Murder. But parts of TLM's accounting of the rape don't make sense to me.

1) I just don't believe that an 8 year old girl - who had come from being in school all day would suffer though a sexual assualt and wait to be assisted by TLM off to take a bathroom break at the front of the car - and then be ushered back for round two of the rape. IMO any little girl, scared out of her mind just would not have been ale to hold onto the contents of her bladder. I do not believe her.

2) I can't imagine that MTR would take off his pants and leave his feet out in the snow outside the vehicle during the rape ... and then continue on with the murder and hiding of her little body - all while not wearing any pants and shoes. I don't believe it.

3) Finally, I've always thought since hearing the story that TLM testified to in court - that it would be really difficult to hold and 8 year old on your lap in the back seat of a Honda Civic... There just isn't that much room -- I don't believe it... sorry.

I had really wished there was more evidence of the rape that just TLM's testimony.

I know there are those who are going to say... well then how come she was missing her skirt and tights. I do think that it is quite possible that poor little Tori needed to use the washroom and by the time they got around to stopping somewhere to let her go... she had soiled herself. It is quite possible that TLM started to beat her for this reason and completely lost her mind. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if TLM had been beaten as a child for wetting her pants. It may have even already happened before the Home Depot stop... thus the need to purchse garbage bags.

Again, It dosn't mean that MR is not guilty of the abduction and still should get life in prison.

MOO

 

[Macright]

sorry not sure what happened there and my post was posted twice...

 

[Macright]

I believe he picked that lane because he knew about the area at the end, where Tori was found. He knew it wasn't visible from the road. He may also have known the land was owned by a mennonite farmer who by all accounts did not have a truck and drove a horse and buggy. Seems like MR was into taking chances anyway if you look at how many women he had on the string at the same time.

not all Mennonite farmers drive a horse and buggy around their land...saw this and learned this for myself when visiting some Mennonite farms... just saying...JMO
many have tractors etc.. now and that was explained to me as being acceptable on their own land....

 

[Macright]

When someone gets arrested for a crime like this, I think the natural tendency is to believe LE must have absolute proof the accused did it...........so most people have absolute certainty of guilt at that point in time.

Exhibit 1............the public outrage and condemnation of MR as soon as he was arrested.

Lots of rumors etc start swirling and that affects my opinion, but we have to presume the jury heard none of it..........so we can still enter the trial from a position of absolute guilt.

The trial starts.........and TLM takes the stand. I listen to her background, and Derstine shedding light on issues of credibility.

I listen to the Crown experts.........lots of evidence presented.........but Derstine manages to get them to admit they have no conclusive proof of a sexual assault........

By now, my belief in absolute guiilt is starting to erode. It now sits at the point where I am "sure" MR is guilty.

I listen to the cellphone records.........and understand MR was there and it corroborates that part of TLM's testimony. I remain "sure" of his guilt..........since the defense doesn't argue the evidence to any great extent.

I watch the video.....but all they show of MR is going to use ATMs. The rest is about TLM during the abduction and the HD store.

Still...........I am "sure" of his guilt.

When I start to consider the evidence, I realize that much of the Crown scientific evidence was non conclusive. The pea coat, the sexual assault, the phone records,..............all non conclusive. There are reasons there is no evidence and why no evidence would be expected..........but that doesn't mean the evidence was ever there to start with.

No proof is no proof.

Then there is the blood spot..........I am now solidly "sure" MR is guilty, but then I learn there is MR sperm all over the back of the front seats.........back to only "sure" he is guilty on the meter.

Then the defense puts a witness up who says she saw TLM entering the school................Huh?............that is a direct contradiction on two different things that TLM stated on the witness stand.

She said she was outside beside a tree....waiting for the first child to come by, and she said she wasn't walking in a hurry with obedient VS following behind.

The witness testimony says that TLM isn't telling the truth on either of those things. If TLM lied about who committed the murder, and where she met VS, and how she walked away with VS down the sidewalk.........what else is she lying about?

Now my guilt meter has fallen below "sure" and is somewhere around "most likely" guilty.

At this point............that would fall below the beyond a reasonable doubt threshold.

The defense and Crown still have their key summaries to give.

If either falters.........it would move the guilt meter either way.

JMO.........

wow.....JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I've thought of that as well... Why that field ??

Woodstock IS Farmland area... Why drive all the way to Mt. Forest to do the deed ?.... stopping off at a drug pick up and a cup of Tea at Tim Horton's... What the heck ?? It dosn't add up for me.
MOO

Snipped for space:

Snipped for space.

Well that's just it, he went to buy the drugs in Guelph... so why would they go back to Woodstock? MTR probably said he knows a secluded place they could bring her to.

 

[Thinkzerz]

I have been thinking about the remote farm lane and found myself wondering about some things.

IF MR knew about this farm lane from his work in the area, it is quite probable that he knew about many others in the area.

Why would he pick a lane that was right across from a house? Anyone from that house could have seen him to in and called the farmer.

People living in the country know who owns the land around them, and will tell each other if they spot someone entering someone else's land.

Often, the land owners are concerned with illegal dumping and don't want their property to become home for cast away junk or construction material.

The lane is also quite narrow and only one lane for the majority of it.

If the farmer had pulled down that lane in his truck..........MR had nowhere to go.

No farmer is simply going to go in and listen to a BS answer and drive away.

They would take a look around and then follow the people out, while noting their licence plate number.

In my opinion, MR took a big chance going down that lane, if his intention was to be there awhile.

JMO..............

That road would be considered a no maintenance road at that time of year. No fear of any one to be on that road. Also It would IMO depend which direction MR drove to get to the lane way. If he was coming from the back of that house my guess is he wouldn't be seen. JMO

 

[Macright]

I've thought of that as well... Why that field ??

Woodstock IS Farmland area... Why drive all the way to Mt. Forest to do the deed ?.... stopping off at a drug pick up and a cup of Tea at Tim Horton's... What the heck ?? It dosn't add up for me.

I just don't buy the Rape theory. That's not to say he isn't guilty of Kidnapping and therefore 1st degree Murder. But parts of TLM's accounting of the rape don't make sense to me.

1) I just don't believe that an 8 year old girl - who had come from being in school all day would suffer though a sexual assualt and wait to be assisted by TLM off to take a bathroom break at the front of the car - and then be ushered back for round two of the rape. IMO any little girl, scared out of her mind just would not have been ale to hold onto the contents of her bladder. I do not believe her.

2) I can't imagine that MTR would take off his pants and leave his feet out in the snow outside the vehicle during the rape ... and then continue on with the murder and hiding of her little body - all while not wearing any pants and shoes. I don't believe it.

3) Finally, I've always thought since hearing the story that TLM testified to in court - that it would be really difficult to hold and 8 year old on your lap in the back seat of a Honda Civic... There just isn't that much room -- I don't believe it... sorry.

I had really wished there was more evidence of the rape that just TLM's testimony.

I know there are those who are going to say... well then how come she was missing her skirt and tights. I do think that it is quite possible that poor little Tori needed to use the washroom and by the time they got around to stopping somewhere to let her go... she had soiled herself. It is quite possible that TLM started to beat her for this reason and completely lost her mind. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if TLM had been beaten as a child for wetting her pants. It may have even already happened before the Home Depot stop... thus the need to purchse garbage bags.

Again, It dosn't mean that MR is not guilty of the abduction and still should get life in prison.

MOO

I agree with most of your post...also, and not trying to get too graphic here, but if indeed she was raped, and with a full bladder by that time I doubt with the force etc. used that the child would have done the job right there and then....not after the fact....just saying....JMO so asking TLM to take her outside to use the bathroom...well that in itself is so farfetched...JMO

 

[Tahorn]

Questions for those who believe Tori was targeted by TLM...

If TLM "knew" Tori, wouldn't TLM also know that she always walked home with her brother? How was she planning to separate them to get Tori alone?

And again if TLM knew Tori, why would she lie about it and why would Tara testify to the same? I think if TLM could admit to "savagely beating to death" a little girl, why would she lie about it being a random child that happened to be standing alone (probably waiting or looking for DS)? And for what reason would TLM even want to lie about it?

I just can't wrap my head around Tori being targeted! Thanks for any insight...

Because TLM statement makes her look like a naive girl caught up in a sexual deviants fantasies that got out of hand, forcing her to kill VS.
I did because he told me too …
I did it because he had this control over me …
If TLM admitted to knowing VS, it would nullify the kidnapping for rape motive and take away from her gangsta cred making her a target in prison…in my opinion …

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I agree with most of your post...also, and not trying to get too graphic here, but if indeed she was raped, and with a full bladder by that time I doubt with the force etc. used that the child would have done the job right there and then....not after the fact....just saying....JMO so asking TLM to take her outside to use the bathroom...well that in itself is so farfetched...JMO

It's also possible that TS said she had to pee because she thought that would stop what he was doing to her, or thought she might be able to escape but couldn't because she was too injured and because TLM wouldn't let her go.

 

[Bravo]

Linda Nguyen‏@LindaNguyenPN
Beef farmer Ervin Bauman says he takes the rural laneway when it's dry. He usually travels by horse and buggy or tractor. In good weather.

 

[tmhco]

I have been thinking about the remote farm lane and found myself wondering about some things.

IF MR knew about this farm lane from his work in the area, it is quite probable that he knew about many others in the area.

Why would he pick a lane that was right across from a house? Anyone from that house could have seen him to in and called the farmer.

People living in the country know who owns the land around them, and will tell each other if they spot someone entering someone else's land.

Often, the land owners are concerned with illegal dumping and don't want their property to become home for cast away junk or construction material.

The lane is also quite narrow and only one lane for the majority of it.

If the farmer had pulled down that lane in his truck..........MR had nowhere to go.

No farmer is simply going to go in and listen to a BS answer and drive away.

They would take a look around and then follow the people out, while noting their licence plate number.

In my opinion, MR took a big chance going down that lane, if his intention was to be there awhile.

JMO..............

Nevertheless, that is where they found her bruised, broken and half naked body. An area known to HIM. JMO

 

[jenniferleia]

I just wanted to give my personal experience on some arguments that have been going back and forth....
Someone very close to me was assaulted which led to murder, I have comments about a couple of issues:

1. I could not attend the trial for more then 1 week. I just started a new job. I actually was lucky I had 1 week vacation at the time. I missed the closing statements and verdict and a few other days. I could not afford to take ANY time off work because I had bills to pay and children to take care of. They do not hand out "victim" funds very easily. It is a fight to get anything, especially if you are not the "victim". Believe it or not, family of a murder person are not the "victims" in their eyes. The deceased is considered the "victim". They do help with some funds (they have a set list and rules), but the DO NOT cover "lost wages" for ANYTHING (trial, funerals, and the hours and hours I spent in the hospital prior to death, no gas money for travelling, in fact they cover very little for family of victims). So from first hand experience, I can say that sometimes it is very hard for family to attend, especially if the case runs for weeks and weeks. Just because I was not there sometimes, does not mean I didnt care. I was kept up-to-date daily by the crown and his assistants.

2. People were talking about RS and how he is upset about never knowing the truth and saying it does not matter. It DOES matter to know the truth. It my situation I was led to believe I lost my loved one over $40. This is not true, but the truth never came out. Lies were all I heard. It bothers me that I will NEVER know the truth. I cant even begin to explain how it feels to not know the truth. I am not sure why, but it would make a difference in my mind, even if the truth hurt worse then the lie.

Anyways, I was reading some previous arguments and thought I'd add my 2 cents.

 

[Jezbel]

TLM may have well gone into the school but I don’t believe she walked out with Tori, I think it’s highly unlikely that no one would have seen her actually walk out with her, and what about the Grandfather’s statement about his granddaughter introducing Tori to him and seeing if they could give her a ride home?
Again I think TLM realized she couldn’t walk out with a child and decided then to go wait outside nearby and wait for a child walking on their own.
Next the reason I believe that MR did rape Tori... (I outlined a timeline in a previous thread somewhere) is if he was assaulting Tori down that lane way, what could they have been doing there for so long? There is no way TLM would have killed Tori, they both clean up, move and bury Tori and sit there for what an hour contemplating on what to go eat?? They would have been outta there straight away after burying Tori under boulders. So for those that don’t believe the rape took place what do you think was happening for that time, they would have been there approx 1 ½ hrs? We know they were still in that area when MR’s phone pinged at 7.45pm(ish) and that they got there before it got dark (otherwise silos and other details would not have been seen).
Also if it did not take place how did TLM give such a detailed description of the scene and surrounding area? I highly doubt that if she flew into a rage straight away, she would have had the time to take in her surroundings. I don’t think her and Tori were sitting there chit chatting about puppies while MR went on a long walk without his phone.
If Tori did happen to mess herself, I still would see no reason why she would have taken her skirt off, Tights and underwear maybe, but no way would she leave her skirt off, she is 8 years old and would not sit with strangers half naked in a car!
Someone mentioned previously about MR using a condom (he had plenty in his car) that would make perfect sense as to how the blood/semen got on the door, while he was taking it off and tossing it ready for it to be thrown away with TLM’s coat and the hammer etc.

These are some things that cannot be explained away and which in turn lead me to believe that MR was not an innocent dupe nor did he not have his wicked way with a poor defenceless scared innocent child.

As always JMO

 

[CarrieBean]

TLM may have well gone into the school but I don’t believe she walked out with Tori, I think it’s highly unlikely that no one would have seen her actually walk out with her, and what about the Grandfather’s statement about his granddaughter introducing Tori to him and seeing if they could give her a ride home?
Again I think TLM realized she couldn’t walk out with a child and decided then to go wait outside nearby and wait for a child walking on their own.
Next the reason I believe that MR did rape Tori... (I outlined a timeline in a previous thread somewhere) is if he was assaulting Tori down that lane way, what could they have been doing there for so long? There is no way TLM would have killed Tori, they both clean up, move and bury Tori and sit there for what an hour contemplating on what to go eat?? They would have been outta there straight away after burying Tori under boulders. So for those that don’t believe the rape took place what do you think was happening for that time, they would have been there approx 1 ½ hrs? We know they were still in that area when MR’s phone pinged at 7.45pm(ish) and that they got there before it got dark (otherwise silos and other details would not have been seen).
Also if it did not take place how did TLM give such a detailed description of the scene and surrounding area? I highly doubt that if she flew into a rage straight away, she would have had the time to take in her surroundings. I don’t think her and Tori were sitting there chit chatting about puppies while MR went on a long walk without his phone.
If Tori did happen to mess herself, I still would see no reason why she would have taken her skirt off, Tights and underwear maybe, but no way would she leave her skirt off, she is 8 years old and would not sit with strangers half naked in a car!
Someone mentioned previously about MR using a condom (he had plenty in his car) that would make perfect sense as to how the blood/semen got on the door, while he was taking it off and tossing it ready for it to be thrown away with TLM’s coat and the hammer etc.

These are some things that cannot be explained away and which in turn lead me to believe that MR was not an innocent dupe nor did he not have his wicked way with a poor defenceless scared innocent child.

As always JMO

Excellent points, Jezbel.

 

[Ardy]

Linda Nguyen‏@LindaNguyenPN
Beef farmer Ervin Bauman says he takes the rural laneway when it's dry. He usually travels by horse and buggy or tractor. In good weather.

How would MR know the people across the road didn't own the land?

JMO

 

[Ardy]

As the grandfather was never called by the Crown to testify, I think we can assume the story is not accurate.

Of did he testify and I missed it?

JMO.............

 

[Hello_Kitty]

TLM may have well gone into the school but I don’t believe she walked out with Tori, I think it’s highly unlikely that no one would have seen her actually walk out with her, and what about the Grandfather’s statement about his granddaughter introducing Tori to him and seeing if they could give her a ride home?
As always JMO

Snipped and BBM

Thanks Jezbel for reminding about this detail, I'd totally forgotten about it. It's amazing the things one forgets. Or remembers.

 

[brighidin]

As the grandfather was never called by the Crown to testify, I think we can assume the story is not accurate.



JMO.............

The same could be said about the 2009 news story posted last night, where some woman claimed TM was going to donate a couch to her friend Terri-Lynne.

 

[brighidin]

I just wanted to give my personal experience on some arguments that have been going back and forth....
Someone very close to me was assaulted which led to murder, I have comments about a couple of issues:

1. I could not attend the trial for more then 1 week. I just started a new job. I actually was lucky I had 1 week vacation at the time. I missed the closing statements and verdict and a few other days. I could not afford to take ANY time off work because I had bills to pay and children to take care of. They do not hand out "victim" funds very easily. It is a fight to get anything, especially if you are not the "victim". Believe it or not, family of a murder person are not the "victims" in their eyes. The deceased is considered the "victim". They do help with some funds (they have a set list and rules), but the DO NOT cover "lost wages" for ANYTHING (trial, funerals, and the hours and hours I spent in the hospital prior to death, no gas money for travelling, in fact they cover very little for family of victims). So from first hand experience, I can say that sometimes it is very hard for family to attend, especially if the case runs for weeks and weeks. Just because I was not there sometimes, does not mean I didnt care. I was kept up-to-date daily by the crown and his assistants.

2. People were talking about RS and how he is upset about never knowing the truth and saying it does not matter. It DOES matter to know the truth. It my situation I was led to believe I lost my loved one over $40. This is not true, but the truth never came out. Lies were all I heard. It bothers me that I will NEVER know the truth. I cant even begin to explain how it feels to not know the truth. I am not sure why, but it would make a difference in my mind, even if the truth hurt worse then the lie.

Anyways, I was reading some previous arguments and thought I'd add my 2 cents.

I'm sorry for your loss.
I agree with you that the truth matters to the family.
ETA: I may have worded that wrong. I don't mean that others don't want the truth. It is important to everyone, especially the family.

 

[Jezbel]

As the grandfather was never called by the Crown to testify, I think we can assume the story is not accurate.

Of did he testify and I missed it?

JMO.............

No he did not testify, but I am not going to disregard it, many have been using what was read in articles as proof of this or that in this case, things that have not been testified to (not point fingers at you Ardy, or anyone in particular) also disregarding things that have been testified to, such as TM stating that Tori did not know TLM.?