Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[flipflop]

That road would be considered a no maintenance road at that time of year. No fear of any one to be on that road. Also It would IMO depend which direction MR drove to get to the lane way. If he was coming from the back of that house my guess is he wouldn't be seen. JMO

MR drove up hwy 6 and turned right onto the sideroad....both which are fully maintained year round. That road is used very regularly all year around...there is a farm tractor dealership just down the road, a mennonite church, and a few houses. Many transport trucks use this road as a bypass around Mt Forest. The private laneway which he turned up, is not plowed in the winter. No one uses this laneway until it is time to start picking rocks and seeding the fields. The house across the road faces this laneway. There is no road coming from the back of this house.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Because TLM statement makes her look like a naive girl caught up in a sexual deviants fantasies that got out of hand, forcing her to kill VS.
I did because he told me too …
I did it because he had this control over me …
If TLM admitted to knowing VS, it would nullify the kidnapping for rape motive and take away from her gangsta cred making her a target in prison…in my opinion …

Just wanted to say something because the word naive jumped out at me:

I don't think that TLM is naive in anyway, what I do think is that she was emotionally vulnerable and MTR exploited that vulnerability. I think it was her blind spot.

 

[Tahorn]

Interesting. If I had to go to jail for murder*, I would want other people to be scared of me (so they would leave me alone).

Presenting myself as a crazy biotch who will eff you over if you look at me the wrong way would probably serve me better than if I adopted the "oh poor me, I just could't help myself...big bad male made me do it."

* I would never do this.

A 1996 study found that a majority of women incarcerated in the New York City jail system reported engaging in illegal activity in response to experiences of abuse, the threat of violence, or coercion by their male partners

http://www.correctionalassociation....s/Suvivors_of_Abuse_Fact_Sheet_2009_FINAL.pdf

I do understand that prisoners are mothers too ...

 

[daisy.faithfull]

As the grandfather was never called by the Crown to testify, I think we can assume the story is not accurate.

Of did he testify and I missed it?

JMO.............

Just because someoneis not called as a witness that doesn't mean that their their testimony would have been inaccurate. There are other possibilities. Prosecutors do not always present everything they have sometimes in an effort to stream line their case so that the jury does not get bogged down, bored etc.

:Moo:

 

[greenthumb]

I have been thinking about the remote farm lane and found myself wondering about some things.

IF MR knew about this farm lane from his work in the area, it is quite probable that he knew about many others in the area.

Why would he pick a lane that was right across from a house? Anyone from that house could have seen him to in and called the farmer.

People living in the country know who owns the land around them, and will tell each other if they spot someone entering someone else's land.Often, the land owners are concerned with illegal dumping and don't want their property to become home for cast away junk or construction material.

The lane is also quite narrow and only one lane for the majority of it.

If the farmer had pulled down that lane in his truck..........MR had nowhere to go.

No farmer is simply going to go in and listen to a BS answer and drive away.

They would take a look around and then follow the people out, while noting their licence plate number.

In my opinion, MR took a big chance going down that lane, if his intention was to be there awhile.

JMO..............

BBM

IMO, you are making assumptions that are not necessarily true. We live in the country, across from a farm lane that goes way back, out of sight, into a neighbour's field. Many vehicles use that lane - some the farmer's, some not. We see vehicles turn in there, but we have no idea if it is the farmer, someone in his family, someone he gave permission to hunt or fish back there, someone out for a drive and just curious, some kids looking for a little privacy... many, many folks drive down that lane. And I'm sure we don't see all of them - we are not always home, are not always at the front of the house where we could see that lane, etc. And we definitely do not write down the license numbers or notify the farmer... that would be taken as being quite a nosey neighbour in this rural neighbourhood, it's more of a live and let live attitude out here in the boonies

So, IMO, MR knew of that lane from his time in the area, and had likely been down it before without being challenged or noticed and therefore, he didn't feel it was much of a risk.

All just MOO.

Interesting to me how differently we all see things because we base our assumptions and beliefs on our own experiences - and that what seems totally logical to one of us, seems so questionable to another. Presumably, WS is representative of an average cross section of people from a variety of backgrounds and there is such diversity in the viewpoints thus far... concerns me that the jury may be just as diverse and just as varied in their thinking. I hope the closing arguments help to clarify the issues and bring us all closer together in our viewpoints, and that the jury can come to a unanimous decision, whatever it may be.

 

[Macright]

He was just as brazen to go to the detention centre after the murder.......but I guess thats a different story.................JMO

FUNNY I totally agree with you on that point...JMO

 

[Salem]

Maybe once the jury is sequestered, we can have a thread and have our own deliberations?

What does everyone think? We have to deliberate like we are real jury members and actually consider each piece of evidence.....

Other ground rules?

Salem

 

[crazyladi]

Maybe once the jury is sequestered, we can have a thread and have our own deliberations?

What does everyone think? We have to deliberate like we are real jury members and actually consider each piece of evidence.....

Other ground rules?

Salem

There will have to be ground rules for sure LOL

 

[Tahorn]

Just wanted to say something because the word naive jumped out at me:

I don't think that TLM is naive in anyway, what I do think is that she was emotionally vulnerable and MTR exploited that vulnerability. I think it was her blind spot.

I use the word naive, for her statement to the police she came across like she did not really understand what was going to happen, that MR had some kind of control over her and she did what she was told to.

 

[brighidin]

I do understand that prisoners are mothers too ...

Obviously many are. Respectfully, that has nothing to do with what we are discussing. You are talking about "gangsta cred" in an Ontario prison, not abused women in the US. No one, including TLM has stated that she was abused, in any form, by MR.

Thanks though.

 

[brighidin]

Maybe once the jury is sequestered, we can have a thread and have our own deliberations?

What does everyone think? We have to deliberate like we are real jury members and actually consider each piece of evidence.....

Other ground rules?

Salem

I guess that depends on whether or not all the other information, beyond the tweets, is made available right when they are sequestered. It might not be made available until the whole trial is over. Hopefully everything will be made available: we couldn't do it with just the tweets - that would be maddening. LOL

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Maybe once the jury is sequestered, we can have a thread and have our own deliberations?

What does everyone think? We have to deliberate like we are real jury members and actually consider each piece of evidence.....

Other ground rules?

Salem

I don't know if this would help, but it's the Canadian Judicial Council's
Model Jury Instructions in Criminal Matters. I believe it is the same instructions as the jury will be given, but it is very, very, veeeeeeeery long, so maybe it's too much?

http://www.courts.ns.ca/general/resource_docs/jury_instr_model_april04.pdf

 

[LilyMacBloom]

I would like to ask a question because I simply don't know:

...I know what the 3 charges are right now against MTR, but what I'm wondering is, IF the jury could be instructed sort of something like if you don't think those charges have been adequately proven could he get something else ie
murder 1 , manslaughter,accessory after the fact , or something else I'm not even aware of

sorry I simply don't know enough about the law or the possible other charges he could be found guilty of rather than the ones with which he was charged given the evidence presented.

Does that make any sense? If not ignore me and carry on.

 

[brighidin]

I use the word naive, for her statement to the police she came across like she did not really understand what was going to happen, that MR had some kind of control over her and she did what she was told to.

I don't know if she was naive; she was most likely pretty street smart. She was a junkie and probably wanted a boyfriend; I agree that MR took advantage of both those things.

 

[brighidin]

I would like to ask a question because I simply don't know:

...I know what the 3 charges are right now against MTR, but what I'm wondering is, IF the jury could be instructed sort of something like if you don't think those charges have been adequately proven could he get something else ie
murder 1 , manslaughter,accessory after the fact , or something else I'm not even aware of

sorry I simply don't know enough about the law or the possible other charges he could be found guilty of rather than the ones with which he was charged given the evidence presented.

Does that make any sense? If not ignore me and carry on.

It does make sense, and I know we talked about it before and guessed that it depends on the judge's instructions to the jury. Given that his instructions to the jury are supposed to take 2 days (!!) I assume that the possibility of lesser charges will be discussed.

Hope that helps.

On that note, I am glad I'm not on that jury. I couldn't stand to listen to leagalese for two whole days. yikes.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I use the word naive, for her statement to the police she came across like she did not really understand what was going to happen, that MR had some kind of control over her and she did what she was told to.

And I was just saying that it was his ability to exploit her weakness that did in fact give him a degree of control over what she did.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I use the word naive, for her statement to the police she came across like she did not really understand what was going to happen, that MR had some kind of control over her and she did what she was told to.

I think you mean following someone's order mindlessly, like Manson's disciples, and others like him?


ps -Perhaps he was exercising some kind of mind control on her. Just a thought.

 

[swedie]

I've thought of that as well... Why that field ??

Woodstock IS Farmland area... Why drive all the way to Mt. Forest to do the deed ?.... stopping off at a drug pick up and a cup of Tea at Tim Horton's... What the heck ?? It dosn't add up for me.

I just don't buy the Rape theory. That's not to say he isn't guilty of Kidnapping and therefore 1st degree Murder. But parts of TLM's accounting of the rape don't make sense to me.

1) I just don't believe that an 8 year old girl - who had come from being in school all day would suffer though a sexual assualt and wait to be assisted by TLM off to take a bathroom break at the front of the car - and then be ushered back for round two of the rape. IMO any little girl, scared out of her mind just would not have been ale to hold onto the contents of her bladder. I do not believe her.

2) I can't imagine that MTR would take off his pants and leave his feet out in the snow outside the vehicle during the rape ... and then continue on with the murder and hiding of her little body - all while not wearing any pants and shoes. I don't believe it.

3) Finally, I've always thought since hearing the story that TLM testified to in court - that it would be really difficult to hold and 8 year old on your lap in the back seat of a Honda Civic... There just isn't that much room -- I don't believe it... sorry.

I had really wished there was more evidence of the rape that just TLM's testimony.

I know there are those who are going to say... well then how come she was missing her skirt and tights. I do think that it is quite possible that poor little Tori needed to use the washroom and by the time they got around to stopping somewhere to let her go... she had soiled herself. It is quite possible that TLM started to beat her for this reason and completely lost her mind. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if TLM had been beaten as a child for wetting her pants. It may have even already happened before the Home Depot stop... thus the need to purchse garbage bags.

Again, It dosn't mean that MR is not guilty of the abduction and still should get life in prison.

MOO

Crazy isn't it? So many things that leave us scratching our heads wondering WTH? Us being of sound mind find it unbelievable as to how some people with mental illnesses think. It is very difficult to the layman to get into the minds of psychopaths. Their mindset is very confusing and irrational. They don't process normal thought and behavioural patterns like you and I. HTH

First off, that field because MR was familiar with it.

Mount Forest area again because MR was familiar with the area.

MR had already called BA for oxys and this is what his trip to Guelph consisted of, and he told TLM about this trip when he met up with her earlier that day. Stopped for tea as MR was thirsty and seemed to like his tea. Maybe he had to use the washroom also.

Rape? Yes forensic pretty much explained their findings. Tori's blood mixed with sperm in minuscule amount, but it's there. The removal of MR's back seat because it contained more DNA, blood and semen. The teenie tiny piece of material found is proof TLM cut the back seat to get rid of evidence. Tori being found naked from the waist down all very inductive of rape by MR.

1) Tori may have peed herself somewhere along the route. IIRC his car mats were washed at the car wash also.

2) I don't recall anywhere where it says MR had no shoes on during the rape. IIRC he did throw his shoes out along the roadway and it seems the woman who found TLM's shoes also found one of MR's shoes.

3) Where there's a will there's a way. If MR was able to have sex with grown women in his car, why not an eight year old in the back seat? A lot more room back there then in the front seat where TLM's blood and MR's sperm was found plus other unknown DNA.

4) IIRC TLM asked Tori at TH is she needed to use the washroom. So no I don't believe Tori being found naked from the waist down was due to her messing herself. It's far fetched IMHO but a suggestion the defense will try and use. Logically thinking and speaking, if TLM beat Tori because she messed herself, TLM would not have taken the time to undress Tori if she discovered this and flew into a rage. Tori's coat was even disposed of. Why? Would you logically believe she still would have had her coat on if the messing of her pants scenario was true? Her coat was disposed of because it contained more of MR's DNA/sperm and it was removed because it probably was a nuisance or was getting in the way while MR raped her. Maybe MR used her coat on the seat to collect any mess he produced. There was a reason for getting rid of all Tori's belongings and other evidence. It all pointed at MR and the fact that he raped Tori. MOO

MR is guilty of all three charges against him and I am 100% confident the jurors will find him guilty also. The whole drug debt theory is ridiculous and has been proven by TM and TLM's testimony. TLM initially blamed MR for the murder because according to her she could not see herself killing a child. Therefore I do believe her and that just goes to prove Tori was not an intended victim of TLM's but a victim of MR's for sexual purposes. TLM has no reason anymore to lie about what happened that day and I believe the jurors realize that also. MOO and HTH.

Wow Jon Hembrey seems to have been very thorough with his tweets.

They stopped at a Tim Hortons in Guelph and Rafferty got out of the car, asking McClintic if she wanted anything. While Rafferty was away, McClintic says she asked Tori if she needed to use the washroom but the eight-year-old said she didn't want anything. When Rafferty returned, he got angry and told McClintic to cover the girl. McClintic says she mouthed the words "I'm sorry" to Tori.

http://live.cbc.ca/Event/Stafford_murder_trial_5

 

[swedie]

I just wanted to give my personal experience on some arguments that have been going back and forth....
Someone very close to me was assaulted which led to murder, I have comments about a couple of issues:

1. I could not attend the trial for more then 1 week. I just started a new job. I actually was lucky I had 1 week vacation at the time. I missed the closing statements and verdict and a few other days. I could not afford to take ANY time off work because I had bills to pay and children to take care of. They do not hand out "victim" funds very easily. It is a fight to get anything, especially if you are not the "victim". Believe it or not, family of a murder person are not the "victims" in their eyes. The deceased is considered the "victim". They do help with some funds (they have a set list and rules), but the DO NOT cover "lost wages" for ANYTHING (trial, funerals, and the hours and hours I spent in the hospital prior to death, no gas money for travelling, in fact they cover very little for family of victims). So from first hand experience, I can say that sometimes it is very hard for family to attend, especially if the case runs for weeks and weeks. Just because I was not there sometimes, does not mean I didnt care. I was kept up-to-date daily by the crown and his assistants.

2. People were talking about RS and how he is upset about never knowing the truth and saying it does not matter. It DOES matter to know the truth. It my situation I was led to believe I lost my loved one over $40. This is not true, but the truth never came out. Lies were all I heard. It bothers me that I will NEVER know the truth. I cant even begin to explain how it feels to not know the truth. I am not sure why, but it would make a difference in my mind, even if the truth hurt worse then the lie.

Anyways, I was reading some previous arguments and thought I'd add my 2 cents.

I am truly sorry for your loss Jennifer and the fact that you never received the truth. I can understand not know the truth can make it hard to find closure. I also believe that is why RS wants to know the truth. He has stated numerous times he wants to put this behind him and move forward. Without the truth it would be hard to move forward. I pray some day you will find out the truth and so will RS. Big hugs. Stay strong Dear. <3

 

[Hello_Kitty]

It just occurred to me that probably the reason why there was no DNA on MTR's pea coat is because TS was wearing her own coat while she was in the car hidden under his coat. Also there was a hood on her own coat. I wonder why they removed her coat and threw it away along with her pannies, tights, and skirt, shoes. And you'd think that if she had only soiled herself, they would at least have put her shoes back on and left her with her coat.