Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[swedie]

TLM may have well gone into the school but I don’t believe she walked out with Tori, I think it’s highly unlikely that no one would have seen her actually walk out with her, and what about the Grandfather’s statement about his granddaughter introducing Tori to him and seeing if they could give her a ride home?
Again I think TLM realized she couldn’t walk out with a child and decided then to go wait outside nearby and wait for a child walking on their own.
Next the reason I believe that MR did rape Tori... (I outlined a timeline in a previous thread somewhere) is if he was assaulting Tori down that lane way, what could they have been doing there for so long? There is no way TLM would have killed Tori, they both clean up, move and bury Tori and sit there for what an hour contemplating on what to go eat?? They would have been outta there straight away after burying Tori under boulders. So for those that don’t believe the rape took place what do you think was happening for that time, they would have been there approx 1 ½ hrs? We know they were still in that area when MR’s phone pinged at 7.45pm(ish) and that they got there before it got dark (otherwise silos and other details would not have been seen).
Also if it did not take place how did TLM give such a detailed description of the scene and surrounding area? I highly doubt that if she flew into a rage straight away, she would have had the time to take in her surroundings. I don’t think her and Tori were sitting there chit chatting about puppies while MR went on a long walk without his phone.
If Tori did happen to mess herself, I still would see no reason why she would have taken her skirt off, Tights and underwear maybe, but no way would she leave her skirt off, she is 8 years old and would not sit with strangers half naked in a car!
Someone mentioned previously about MR using a condom (he had plenty in his car) that would make perfect sense as to how the blood/semen got on the door, while he was taking it off and tossing it ready for it to be thrown away with TLM’s coat and the hammer etc.

These are some things that cannot be explained away and which in turn lead me to believe that MR was not an innocent dupe nor did he not have his wicked way with a poor defenceless scared innocent child.

As always JMO

Again, these are tweets from John with CBC and he is very thorough, lots of info in his tweets. I believe TLM testimony she waited by the telephone pole as she claimed. I cannot see her taking the risk of barging right into the school, in front of all these teachers and other children and NO ONE saw her. IMHO it does not make sense. Poor granny's testimony had so many flaws. Also I believe she claimed it was 3:20pm, but the video shows TLM walking down Fyfe at 3:32 IIRC. That's 12 minutes difference in time. As in another post of mine way back, I said I had watched the video of TLM and Tori walking down Fyfe and no where in that video does it show a vehicle traveling North during their walk. The only vehicle is AFTER TLM and Tori enter the CCNH parking lot. I think granny got her days mixed up and she actually saw TM going into the school one day prior to April 8th. MOO BTW TM also had a white coat. It wouldn't be hard for granny to mix up her days as she stated she was at the school most days to pick up her grandbabies. HTH

McClintic says she was waiting by a telephone poll near Oliver Stephens Public School on April 8, 2009. "I saw just a bunch of kids getting out of school. I saw Victoria," she says. McClintic says she started talking to Tori Stafford. The two began walking together towards the parking lot of the retirement home where Rafferty's car was parked, she says.

http://live.cbc.ca/Event/Stafford_murder_trial_5

TM is a white hoodie during PC and TM stating TS wasn't herself in that video.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUp4b6-qBx8&feature=relmfu"]Tara McDonald talks about daughter - YouTube[/ame]

TM is an off white sweater.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uslvznivWg&feature=relmfu"]McDonald denies she is woman in video - YouTube[/ame]

TM is a white coat.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuQTc3rIK3A&feature=relmfu"]Tori's parents talk about life looking for their daughter - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Macright]

There is something about those butterfly earrings that isn't right IMO... I thought the teacher testified that Tori forgot them (before the bell rand and was in the line) and asked to go back to retrieve them and the teacher saw her put them in her pocket...then these same earring were found with her body.. just wondering if she was so scared in the car why would she put the earring on and if not why were they with the body...my thoughts rest on the info from the teacher and I will try to find that info to see if I was dreaming this or not...JMO

 

[Heliotrope]

First off, that field because MR was familiar with it.

Mount Forest area again because MR was familiar with the area.

MR had already called BA for oxys and this is what his trip to Guelph consisted of, and he told TLM about this trip when he met up with her earlier that day. Stopped for tea as MR was thirsty and seemed to like his tea. Maybe he had to use the washroom also.

Also, we're looking at it with all the wisdom of retrospect - we know there was no missing persons report made until around 6pm. They didn't know that. I bet their hands were shaking with adrenaline when they were heading East on the 401, I bet they could hardly believe they went through with it.

For all they knew at the time, someone could have spotted her being pushed into the car and called police.

They had to get far away as quickly as possible. When nothing was heard on the radio, I assume they thought they'd gotten away with it and started to relax.

 

[Macright]

okay here is the link from the teachers testimony : this is why I questioned the earrings...

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2012/03/06/tori-staffords-mother-to-take-stand

 

[tmhco]

There is something about those butterfly earrings that isn't right IMO... I thought the teacher testified that Tori forgot them (before the bell rand and was in the line) and asked to go back to retrieve them and the teacher saw her put them in her pocket...then these same earring were found with her body.. just wondering if she was so scared in the car why would she put the earring on and if not why were they with the body...my thoughts rest on the info from the teacher and I will try to find that info to see if I was dreaming this or not...JMO

They belonged to her mother. She probably put them back on as comfort. JMO

 

[maxfactor]

They belonged to her mother. She probably put them back on as comfort. JMO

You are probably right.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

okay here is the link from the teachers testimony : this is why I questioned the earrings...

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2012/03/06/tori-staffords-mother-to-take-stand

I'm curious to know your point concerning the earrings. TS could have put them on later. She could have showed them to TLM while MTR was in the Timmies.

 

[Macright]

They belonged to her mother. She probably put them back on as comfort. JMO

I know they belonged to TM but I don't think she put them on for comfort...JMO

 

[Jezbel]

I know they belonged to TM but I don't think she put them on for comfort...JMO

She could have put them on once she walked out of the school

 

[crazyladi]

Did they even say she was wearing the earrings? Or we're they found inside the bag she was so inhumanly disposed in?

 

[tmhco]

I know they belonged to TM but I don't think she put them on for comfort...JMO

When I was in 3rd grade my mother was in the hospital for nearly a year. We could only visit every so often. On one visit she gave me a paper tissue to clean myself with. I kept that tissue with me the duration of her stay. i wanted a piece of her with me. No doubt VS would feel the same. JMO

 

[Jezbel]

Did they even say she was wearing the earrings? Or we're they found inside the bag she was so inhumanly disposed in?

One earring was loose due to decomposition and I believe it was said that on the side she was laying on the earring was still attached
I have to go back and look but I'm pretty sure that was what the pathologist said.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Did they even say she was wearing the earrings? Or we're they found inside the bag she was so inhumanly disposed in?

"He says Tori was found with only a T-shirt and there was no evidence of clothing on the lower portion of her body. A pair of butterfly earrings and bottle caps were also found with her body."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/03/rafferty-stafford-trial-tuesday.html

 

[Heliotrope]

Did they even say she was wearing the earrings? Or we're they found inside the bag she was so inhumanly disposed in?

I believe one yes, one no. Would have to confirm with reports from the day of the coroner's testimony - don't feel quite up to that right now.

 

[Ardy]

Perhaps that's what the legal arguments are about today, the Crown now wants to call the grandfather as a witness.

The Crown didn't call 2 eye witnesses to the trial?

Weird..............

It is true there is lots of information contained in MSM articles, that wasn't testified to in the trial..........and only some of those have been referred to on the form..............but eye witness testimony to an abduction would be considerably more important...........in my opinion.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

There is something about those butterfly earrings that isn't right IMO... I thought the teacher testified that Tori forgot them (before the bell rand and was in the line) and asked to go back to retrieve them and the teacher saw her put them in her pocket...then these same earring were found with her body.. just wondering if she was so scared in the car why would she put the earring on and if not why were they with the body...my thoughts rest on the info from the teacher and I will try to find that info to see if I was dreaming this or not...JMO

They were a simple hook-in earring which take only a split second to put on .. could be the teacher saw her put them in her pocket and when the teacher wasn't looking, Tori put them on.

She obviously placed importance on them for her to have returned to her desk to retrieve them. I also agree with the other suggestions that it is very possible she wanted to be wearing something of mommy's for comfort ... or early in the ride, put them on so she wouldn't lose them.

JMO

 

[greenthumb]

I know they belonged to TM but I don't think she put them on for comfort...JMO

I think it makes perfect sense that a little girl, scared and wanting her mom, would feel those earrings of her mother's in her pocket and put them on to soothe herself.

But if you don't believe that, what is it you believe?

 

[Sillybilly]

I know they belonged to TM but I don't think she put them on for comfort...JMO

So what do you propose is the answer?

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I think it makes perfect sense that a little girl, scared and wanting her mom, would feel those earrings of her mother's in her pocket and put them on to soothe herself.

But if you don't believe that, what is it you believe?

I asked that question as well but no response. I'm truly curious to know.

 

[Salem]

They belonged to her mother. She probably put them back on as comfort. JMO

Or held them tightly in her hands. I don't believe the earrings were in Tori's ears and that was probably impossible to tell after 3 months. If she did not put them on along the way, I can certainly believe she was holding on to them with all of her might Oh.... that poor child.

Salem