Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[swedie]

It is pretty much out of the question that an 8 year old female child in the company of a 28 year old man is stripped of all clothing, including shoes, below the waist because she peed her pants. Are there any other wild ideas floating around to explain why an 8 year old girl is stripped of clothing below the waist while in the company of a 28 year old man? ...alien invasion?

I'm trying really hard to think of a reason to excuse the 28 year old man from being in the company of an 8 year old girl that has been stripped of all clothing below the waist ... there isn't one. In fact, it blows my mind that anyone would want to excuse the accused. We know he had extra clothes ... if he was the good guy, why didn't he offer those clothes to Victoria? Why was Victoria left without clothing while he and TLM were throwing extra clothing out the car window?

Good point about the extra clothing MR was carrying Otto. Oh but we know TLM staged the whole rape scenario right? I find it rather far fetched if this is what the defense is going to argue. We know TLM was in love with MR and she would do anything for a little bit of love and this is to me the main reason why she helped MR by abducting Tori. Little bit of love and a dare. She couldn't believe her luck when she met him. TLM believed she was his one and only. This obviously wasn't the first time MR had made suggestions to TLM about abducted. He was grooming and daring her and she finally carried it off. And yes again I believe her statement. I know TLM obviously has mental problems and she had violent streaks (she's even admitted to that herself) and MR knew that. The fact that once TLM did confess, her claims have always remained the same other then who dealt the fatal blows. The seed was planted in TLM's head by MR stating "we can't keep her and we can't take her back", he prompted her to go into HD to purchase the murder weapon and bags, therefore she knew Tori's destiny. I don't believe she knew at that time MR was going to put her up to beating Tori. All it took was for him to retrieve the HD bag from the trunk, put a bag over Tori's head and then MR called TLM over, holding out the hammer. MR knew she would do the dastardly deed. MR planned this from start to finish and I seeing him paying with a guilty verdict MOO. I don't see there being any big mystery or hidden agenda. It happened as been stated by TLM and the Crown has proven this. It's pretty straight forward. Two twisted individuals came together and both will pay.

Rafferty had said things in the past that had bothered her too, McClintic said Tuesday, but she
ignored them because she so badly wanted to have finally found a good
man.

“There’d be times that he would say things. We would be
driving past schools and he would make a comment like, ‘it would be so
easy to do this,’ ” McClintic told the jury.

“He had made a comment once before when we were driving, saying, ‘Would you think it was weird if I asked you if you think it was weird to kidnap somebody?” McClintic recalled.

McClintic said Rafferty parked in a retirement home lot just down the street, and her plan was to pretend she went looking for a girl to kidnap but would come back empty-handed. But as he slowly drove past her, watching her, she decided she would find a child and walk beside them, but not go any further, she said.

http://metronews.ca/news/138978/mcclintic-tells-jury-she-delivered-blows-to-stafford/

 

[Heliotrope]

People, even kids, do not usually take dirty things off until they can replace them with something clean anyway.

You're not wrong there, Daisy. Which leads me to another point about discarding things...

The car seat; I have a lovely leather rocker by the fireplace - so comfy, a glass of red, a good book, or the latest episode of Sherlock on PBS. Wouldn't you know, along comes my fat orange cat and sharpens his claws on it! Grrr.

MTR is a complete loser (I know, this is where I'm supposed to say JMO, but I can't do it) without two dimes to rub together. Well, he might have, at any given time, cash on hand courtesy of his girlfriend. But I don't see his local BMO giving him a mortgage. I don't necessarily believe he bought his mom a house.

I do have two dimes to rub together. I'm not wealthy, but I can afford a new recliner. But do you know what I'm not going to do? I'm not going to throw my recliner out for garbage collection next week. Sit on the floor to watch Sherlock. I'll wait until I have a new recliner, and then it'll go in the basement or maybe to charity.

His car looks like he actually bought a can of black paint at Home Depot, and painted it with a paintbrush. But he threw away the seat because it had a cut in it? Look at his car again - he threw out the seat because it had a cut in it.

I believe an action that would more consistent with his, hmm, aesthetics would be to put a piece of duct tape over the cut, or put a blanket over the seat and discard it once he'd found a new seat at the wreckers.

I don't believe the jury will be fooled for a second by the red-herring about the seat was in, the seat was out.

 

[swedie]

I agree. If MR's behaviour can be explained away, DD would request that the charged against him be dismissed and the trial would be over. There's still time but I don't think it's gonna happen. There is real evidence that he committed crimes in this case. The crown has a case against him. JMO

EXACTLY Matou. Plan and simple. MR was there from start to finish and did not go to LE for the six weeks before he was caught. MR even lied to LE during the visit to him at his mother's house. Right there it shows his guilt. AND the fact that he continued a loving relationship with TLM while she was in custody. Not the way a horrified 28 year old man would act period.

The fact that Tori died whether by his hands, whether sexual assault happened or not, Tori was an abducted child who died while in the custody of TLM and MR...GUILTY of first degree murder. MOO


Very lengthy but here is charges Judge Heeney will present to the jurors before deliberations. May not be the exact charges but very similar. HTH.

http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/Pattern_Jury_Instr/7thcircrimji_draft_general_corrected.pdf

 

[swedie]

I feel that if she pee'd herself, she would have taken off her tights and kept her skirt on to keep herself covered up being in the presence of a strange male. MOO

Also if she just pee'd herself and no rape took place....why were her clothes not with her, why did they throw them out elsewhere?

The reason for washing the mats at the car wash. When you look at the evidence pictures of the interior of his car, the mats are gone...hmmm. Pictures 68 and 78. There are many pictures but these two are pretty clear there are no floor mats in the back. Didn't one of his friends way, way back also claim she noticed the mat missing out of his trunk? MOO

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/05/19599961.html

 

[Heliotrope]

Oh, I absolutely agree with you. I fail to understand how reasonable doubt can be raised in the minds of others, but it does appear that it has for some reason.

I don't know that these boards represent a typical sample of society though.

We occasionally talk about the case at work. I have not yet heard someone say "It's a conspiracy against an innocent man" or "Something's not right about the case" or "He's clearly innocent" or even "I hope he's found guilty but I just don't know."

My observation is that the average person, who gets their info about the case by watching the news - i.e. doesn't come on to online forums to discuss the possibilty of drug debt, widespread LE corruption, zombie invasions, etc - believes overwhelmingly that he is guilty.

 

[swedie]

Ok, MR is guilty ... Lock him up now let's move on ...

How do we protect our children, when we ignore the facts that this case may not of been sexually motivated. TLM was in our child welfare system and still she only had a grade eight education. How does that happen? She was sentences for violent crimes and wrote about revenge regarding these crimes and still she was let out early on probation. How does that happen? She missed her appointment with a mental health worker and an arrest warrant was issued, yet she wasn't arrested until after VS was killed. How does that happen? All the signs were there and ignored. Until our systems wakes up to preventive education then more of our children will be lost. For me turning our backs on people like TLM is why VS is lost to us today. ... I am afraid that if this case gets recorded as a sexually motivated crime the real issues will be hidden away ...

And more TLM will be created ...

We protect our children by taking the threat off the street and locking them in prison in my opinion. If MR knew TLM had a questionable bad past, he should have not been around her for whatever reason. Her being ten years younger is a good reason to start with.

MR was living off the profits of an escort which in MOO is just a glorified name for prostitute and very well could have been collecting government money as well so does that make him any better? MR was more than like selling illegal drugs which is against the law. MR lied about his educational background and only had grade eight or less. Because he obtained only one credit in high school, he basically had no high school education. So therefore he's no better than TLM in that regard. Take a look at RW educational background, education means absolutely nothing in the mind of a sick criminal. TLM wrote about her feelings where as MR didn't. Doesn't mean he certainly didn't have the thought process. And people like MR who put people like TLM up to carrying out these heinous crimes based on a dare will continue to take advantage of sick minded individuals and try and get away with it by placing the blame on them, their partner in crime. HTH and MOO. MR is no innocent dupe.

 

[BorgQueen]

I don't know that these boards represent a typical sample of society though.

We occasionally talk about the case at work. I have not yet heard someone say "It's a conspiracy against an innocent man" or "Something's not right about the case" or "He's clearly innocent" or even "I hope he's found guilty but I just don't know."

My observation is that the average person, who gets their info about the case by watching the news - i.e. doesn't come on to online forums to discuss the possibilty of drug debt, widespread LE corruption, zombie invasions, etc - believes overwhelmingly that he is guilty.

Ooh! Zombie invasions! There's an idea

Seriously, though.... I think I am just cynical and worried. Perhaps over-worried to the point of paranoia? I worry about all the kids I saw walking home from school ALONE the other day. Many younger than Tori was. I worry about the kids I passed on the way to the store about 30 minutes ago, playing outside, with no adult in sight. In the dark. I worry and worry and worry until I can't breathe. Suppose I need to relax?

One never really knows what the jury is thinking... until the verdict. That worries me.

JMO.

 

[puppyraiser]

Ooh! Zombie invasions! There's an idea

Seriously, though.... I think I am just cynical and worried. Perhaps over-worried to the point of paranoia? I worry about all the kids I saw walking home from school ALONE the other day. Many younger than Tori was. I worry about the kids I passed on the way to the store about 30 minutes ago, playing outside, with no adult in sight. In the dark. I worry and worry and worry until I can't breathe. Suppose I need to relax?

One never really knows what the jury is thinking... until the verdict. That worries me.

JMO.

Let's hope we don't have a jury like the P12 up here.

 

[Tahorn]

We protect our children by taking the threat off the street and locking them in prison in my opinion. If MR knew TLM had a questionable bad past, he should have not been around her for whatever reason. Her being ten years younger is a good reason to start with.

MR was living off the profits of an escort which in MOO is just a glorified name for prostitute and very well could have been collecting government money as well so does that make him any better? MR was more than like selling illegal drugs which is against the law. MR lied about his educational background and only had grade eight or less. Because he obtained only one credit in high school, he basically had no high school education. So therefore he's no better than TLM in that regard. Take a look at RW educational background, education means absolutely nothing in the mind of a sick criminal. TLM wrote about her feelings where as MR didn't. Doesn't mean he certainly didn't have the thought process. And people like MR who put people like TLM up to carrying out these heinous crimes based on a dare will continue to take advantage of sick minded individuals and try and get away with it by placing the blame on them, their partner in crime. HTH and MOO. MR is no innocent dupe.

Put MR in jail, better safe then sorry ... but it doesn't negate the fact TLM was a very dangerous person who not only stabbed two people, microwaved a dog, beat her mother and that is what we know about. The sad thing was she was in custody, then let go. She had court order medical care for violent tendencies which led to the warrant ... which I can only assume was prior to VS death. I want to know if the police even bothered to go to her house when the warrant was issued. For me ... This isn't the first time our justice system failed us.

Robert Pickton, Clifford Olsen, Robert Worth and Paul Bernado.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Ooh! Zombie invasions! There's an idea

Seriously, though.... I think I am just cynical and worried. Perhaps over-worried to the point of paranoia? I worry about all the kids I saw walking home from school ALONE the other day. Many younger than Tori was. I worry about the kids I passed on the way to the store about 30 minutes ago, playing outside, with no adult in sight. In the dark. I worry and worry and worry until I can't breathe. Suppose I need to relax?

One never really knows what the jury is thinking... until the verdict. That worries me.

JMO.

I worry too. Look what happened with CA. But even before the verdict was read I was still anxious about things because I am Generation OJ. I will never forget seeing that white Bronco driving on the freeway with a flock of screeching sirens behind and I will never, ever, ever forget hearing that verdict.

And I definitely worry about the children.

 

[matou]

Well, the jury could be thinking-here's a guy who had a dozen women he dated state that he mentioned various things such as:
-Tori Stafford herself
-kidnapping a child and how the child could grow up not knowing they were kidnapped
-him KNOWING information about the disappearance of Tori Stafford and who was being questioned in her disappearance.

What else would the jury conclude based on testimony?

-He was addicted to drugs.
-He was needy.
-He was angry that TLM didn't get a younger girl. He mentioned to TLM that younger girls were easier to manipulate and TLM was one of the youngest girls he had on his roster.
-He was not afraid of TLM. He picks her up and grabs her and cracks her back, he wouldn't be overtaken by force by her at all.
-He helped TLM to possibly change her appearance. WHY? Because he is such a good friend? He knew her for 2 months.
-He made changes to his car.
-He was a pimp.
-He was a liar.
-He was in the vicinity of the school several times that day.
-His car was seen at 3:30:56 on Fyfe driving by the CASS camera 6.
-His car was seen at 3:30 on Fyfe entering the Caressant Care Retirement Home Parking Lot.
Because TLM and Tori enter that car at approximately 3:33, it would be assumed MR actively participated in the abduction of Tori Stafford. I feel the jury will come to the same conclusion.
-Also, his phone is off during the time of the rape, murder and clean up.

IMO the imagery of TLM's testimony where the rape is concerned will end up with a guilty verdict on that count. That testimonial imagery makes sense. He started masturbating as he turned in the laneway. That is convincing imagery that makes sense to what was to occur next to Tori. The babbling that occurred afterwards from TLM as to the murder was also graphic, yet was very confusing. I think the jury was also confused. I'm not sure how the jury will deal with that part at all. I'm convinced the facial injuries on Tori were administered by MR. The horn went off and maybe that was Tori signalling to TLM to help her or anyone to help her. That could have gotten MR pretty angry with her, in addition to the fact that Tori was too old and needed to die for being too old since she would definitely talk. There was blood on his bag and it was his blood mixed with Tori's blood. Was he bleeding? Did he cut himself when he was raping Tori? Did he damage his hand after hitting her, possibly, and he started to bleed? Why is MR's blood mixed with Tori's blood in the mesh of his gymbag? I'm sure people can explain away blood being there but really??? There were minute flecks of blood remaining in the material mixed with Tori's blood. How did that happen? Did Tori scratch him, bite him? Who pushed Tori on the ground? Why did Tori get pushed on the ground? The murder charge will be the hardest one for the jury, I'm sure. I know how I would find him though. JMO

 

[swedie]

TLM would NEVER have "rescued" that poor, targeted, helpless victim of a sweet little girl. TLM wanted to do what she did. JMO

When she was in Home Depot alone, she could have asked ANYONE to call the cops 911 before she went back out to the parking lot. JMO

TLM testified how she considered abducting Tori once she was at the school. She was going to show MR she could do it by walking with a child so far and calling it off until she saw MR stalking her to make sure she was acting upon it. She said she also hesitated in HD and then walked away from the car when MR was sexually assaulting Tori because she knew MR was going to rape and harm Tori. She may have considered rescuing Tori by taking her into the washroom at TH but when Tori answered no, TLM did not act upon it. We are not in TLM's head and do not know what thought process crossed her mind that day. Respectfully, so for one to say she would NEVER have rescued her is not for us to say. I am not sticking up for TLM I am stating we have no idea what was going through her head or anyone else's for that matter. They are both equally reasonable and guilty. MR could have rescued Tori also and he didn't. MOO

 

[Mystic]

Exactly, he used them ... He didn't control them ... Rape is about power, not seduction ...

i don't agree, in general...using people is all about control and power, whether it is subtle. passive or aggressive

sorry about double post here, it didn't go thru 1st time so i tried it again

 

[Heliotrope]

Ooh! Zombie invasions! There's an idea

Seriously, though.... I think I am just cynical and worried. Perhaps over-worried to the point of paranoia? I worry about all the kids I saw walking home from school ALONE the other day. Many younger than Tori was. I worry about the kids I passed on the way to the store about 30 minutes ago, playing outside, with no adult in sight. In the dark. I worry and worry and worry until I can't breathe. Suppose I need to relax?

One never really knows what the jury is thinking... until the verdict. That worries me.

JMO.

I worry too, all the time. I hope that the universe will unfold as it should.

 

[swedie]

I found an interesting post while looking around on the site for articles around the time Tori went missing. I am not sure if the parent in this article was contacted by police or if this was investigated but I thought it was interesting.

"A woman who lives on Tennyson Street, a few homes away from where Rafferty was arrested, says her son had a scary encounter on the street about two weeks before Victoria went missing.

Her 10-year-old son told her then that he was approached by two people in a car but ran away before anyone spoke to him.

She said the incident made her pay close attention to Victoria's case and that she and several other people living on Tennyson had posted pictures of Victoria in the front windows of their home and on the sides of their cars."

I found it very interesting, something to think about even if means nothing.

http://edmonton.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...ford_arrest_090520/20090520/?hub=EdmontonHome

Woah thanks for the article Crazyladi. Very interesting article. I remember reading another article where a woman who babysat lived on that same street and said the arrest of MR really trouble her or something along that line. IT'S CALLED GUT INSTINCT and mine is very strong in many situations. When I was a young child age five, I had two encounters where I was just about abducted (at least approached by strange men) and my gut instinct kicked in right away. While walking home from school a man walking toward me, reached into his pocket and pulled out wrapped candy, extending his hand to me. I barely noticed what he had in his hand and my adrenaline was majorly pumping. I took off running like a marathon runner. Boy was I terrified. I ran at least four blocks before I stopped to look back and immediately began vomiting. Then that summer while walking home from the beach with my sister we were approached by a man in a car who asked us if it wasn't too hot to be walking and offered us a ride. We ran straight up the sidewalk to the closest house and banged on the door. The guy was obviously up to no good as he hit the gas, squealing his tires, as he fled in a big hurry. The woman of the house answered the door and called the police. About three weeks later the guy was arrested because he had approached other children. One was fortunate enough to get his license plate number.

Gut instinct, if strong enough, gives you a huge adrenaline rush leaving you extremely hot and panicked feeling; flight or fight. My parents always warned us of strangers back then when I was a child and child abduction didn't seem quite as common as it is now. Anyhow that's how some children can react to stranger danger and other children may not feel threatened depending, I believe largely on the fact of how they are approached, by whom (male or female) and what the tactic is to lure them in.

In Tori's case it was known she loved dogs. I have often wondered if TLM had walked her dog(s) in the area of OSPS on previous days, (I remember reading someone spotting TLM previous to this day walking her dog(s)). Tori may have recalled TLM from a previous day and possibly stopped to pet Precious, just as she had done with a neighbourhood cat, and therefore Tori felt less threatened or afraid of TLM. I DO NOT think Tori was chosen by TLM over a drug debt though. I think Tori recognized TLM from other days. MOO and sorry for repeating myself...bedtime lol.

Beware! It's a full moon tonight hahaha.

 

[swedie]

Do you honestly believe that a women with four child, would decided to sell herself and give all her money to MR. 17k over six months ... drugs maybe ...

Feb 13 she deposited 700, her son just passed away ... I say drugs

I believe MR was giving her drugs which he was getting from BA and other sources (TLM's contacts) for CS to sell for him and this was where some of the money was coming from. CS felt she had a future with MR and was investing into it. CS wasn't going to admit to the selling of drugs because that is illegal whereas escorting isn't. CS could have lost her children over drug trafficking or served a jail sentence. So IMHO if she wasn't asked on the stand, she wasn't going to admit to it. Bottom line is, MR was up to no good in many of his actions. He was too lazy and IMHO very uneducated to get a decent job and drug dealing was an easy income for him especially if he could suck someone else into selling them for him and give him the profits. He was also abusing them, that's pretty apparent. Again JMHO.

 

[Sillybilly]

From Swedie's post above:

McClintic said Rafferty parked in a retirement home lot just down the street, and her plan was to pretend she went looking for a girl to kidnap but would come back empty-handed. But as he slowly drove past her, watching her, she decided she would find a child and walk beside them, but not go any further, she said.

This case has fried my brain, so maybe i've misunderstood something. In TLM's statement above, she indicates MTR drove past her before she took Tori ... i thought it was said at some point that he drove past them? Am i mis-remembering that, or did he drive past twice ... once pre and once post the actual abduction?

 

[Mystic]

Do you honestly believe that a women with four child, would decided to sell herself and give all her money to MR. 17k over six months ... drugs maybe ...

Feb 13 she deposited 700, her son just passed away ... I say drugs

yeah, i believe it

 

[OhSoCurious]

TLM testified how she considered abducting Tori once she was at the school. She was going to show MR she could do it by walking with a child so far and calling it off until she saw MR stalking her to make sure she was acting upon it. She said she also hesitated in HD and then walked away from the car when MR was sexually assaulting Tori because she knew MR was going to rape and harm Tori. She may have considered rescuing Tori by taking her into the washroom at TH but when Tori answered no, TLM did not act upon it. We are not in TLM's head and do not know what thought process crossed her mind that day. Respectfully, so for one to say she would NEVER have rescued her is not for us to say. I am not sticking up for TLM I am stating we have no idea what was going through her head or anyone else's for that matter. They are both equally reasonable and guilty. MR could have rescued Tori also and he didn't. MOO

It's safe to say TLM would NEVER have "rescued" Tori from her doomed abduction BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T. TLM had power to end it. Her stories are not to be believed. I can say that if I want, and I surely WILL. The scum killed the poor child with a hammer which she selected off the shelf. By the way, one can say "never" because it's over and her actions and choices have spoken. JMO

 

[Tahorn]

I believe MR was giving her drugs which he was getting from BA and other sources (TLM's contacts) for CS to sell for him and this was where some of the money was coming from. CS felt she had a future with MR and was investing into it. CS wasn't going to admit to the selling of drugs because that is illegal whereas escorting isn't. CS could have lost her children over drug trafficking or served a jail sentence. So IMHO if she wasn't asked on the stand, she wasn't going to admit to it. Bottom line is, MR was up to no good in many of his actions. He was too lazy and IMHO very uneducated to get a decent job and drug dealing was an easy income for him especially if he could suck someone else into selling them for him and give him the profits. He was also abusing them, that's pretty apparent. Again JMHO.

I believe the drugs were for her ...