Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[Tahorn]

Actually TLM was not going to turn him in. He went to far when he said she would do anything for a little bit of love. His arrogance cost him the trust of his partner.JMO
I also want to address his needing TLM as a partner. Well he surely was not going to be the one to take the risk of approaching the school to kidnap a little girl. No one really looked twice when it was TLM, but I bet you many would have noticed him leaving with TS. He also got TLM to enter into HD and purchase the hammer and garbage bags. The only places he got out was, Timmies and at an ATM. Both places very non-conspicuos. Coffee can not be a murder weapon, so therefore he took that risk. Also at BA's he had to follow through, he certainly was not going to send TLM in and be stuck with the kid in case a cruiser pulled up. He also trusted TLM to keep the kid quiet while he made the deal. Therefore he very much needed to have a partner. Also he needed someone to experience it with. Someone to talk about it with after and feel the rush with. Also he is a coward who needed someone else to do the deed with.
All of this is JMO.

Exactly, MR had plenty of experience with women to know that his secret would not be kept for very long.

Children are lured away all the time without female partners, and no one sees anything. Actually it is unusual to use a partner. If he were planning a kidnapping he would have had his murder kit already. He had everything he needed in his house. Again not saying he is innocent, just don't buy TLM story.

 

[antiquegirl]

<rsbm>

Catching up here, so this may have been addressed already:

The defence could have subpoened anyone that could support MTR. Whether they were involved in illegal activity or not, it is not up to the witness whether they wish to step forward.

Very true. But only if the defence were aware that those witnesses even existed. Hypothetically, if TLM had a plan to sell Tori to a human trafficking ring, but decided to blame MTR instead for whatever reason, the defence would have no idea, no proof, and no one from this ring would step up to offer this information. There are other possibilities that could involve illegal activity that would not come to light unless that person offered up the information. I am NOT saying any of this is even remotely true ... only that there could be players that the defence may not know about.

Personally, I am not certain that TLM told LE everything or that she was truthful about what she did tell them.

JMO

 

[tmhco]

Agree to disagree.

Since VS was linked to MR and to TLM that theory doesn't make sense.

MR had a lot of experience with women, so it would be illogical to believe he would trust any women to keep the rape of a child a secret without some kind of control ... Control he did not have, over TLM or any other women ...

Tell me it was a kidnapping for finicial gain that went terribly wrong and I would buy that ...

Funny, no witnessess testified that TLM or MR had met VS. TLM was chosen by MR for just that reason. He wanted a child and she had the nerve. JMO

 

[Tahorn]

Just out of curiosity, what did TLM do inside the school if indeed she did enter? Why is this such a revelation for some? I'm at a loss.

I believe the defense is trying to prove that this was not a random kidnapping and that TLM knew VS. If that were the case then the sexually motivated kidnapping was probably not the reason for VS kidnapping.

 

[Salem]

Anyone else think Derstine wasted his opportunity to close last?

Pretty big gamble, practically remaining silent.


JMO

I'm thinking he must have a really big closing to risk it on the witness. I'm thinking her testimony is going to be a big part of the closing argument.

It was a huge gamble. We will see how it plays out. I'm ready for morning already.

Salem

 

[antiquegirl]

Respectfully, I think MR fantasized for a long time, but IMO, he's a coward and adopted the idiom "there's safety in numbers", once he found the right person to help him carry out the crime. MOO

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...'s+safety+in+numbers&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

LOL (not at you, but at the idiom). When it comes to committing a crime, I prefer this one:

"Three may keep a secret if two of them are dead." - Benjamin Franklin

JMO

 

[Tahorn]

Funny, no witnessess testified that TLM or MR had met VS. TLM was chosen by MR for just that reason. He wanted a child and she had the nerve. JMO

MR police statement says that the women he was seeing at the time VS disappeared, her daughter was VS friend. Coencidence.

TLM statement says she met VS mother. Coincidence.

There is the link between both of them and the victim.

Originally Posted by tmhco
I disagree that access to children would be sufficient to kidnap a child. He wanted a child with no links to himself. A child would be wary of an adult male trying to woo them with puppies . A teenage girl, not so much.

She was just as responsible as he so he had no reason to believe she would confess. I doubt very much he knew she had violated probation and would be picked up. She also told him she would take the rap. That was reason enough at the time. He easily pursuaded her to kidnap a child and he took this as devotion. He was just cocky enough to believe she would take the fall. JMO

 

[roseofsharon]

LOL (not at you, but at the idiom). When it comes to committing a crime, I prefer this one:

"Three may keep a secret if two of them are dead." - Benjamin Franklin

JMO

Yikes! That's a good one AG!!

 

[myzzy]

I guess since i haven't posted most of this week since the defence rested i will give my opinion. I wish the defence would have given a solid reason for the events in MR version but i guess we will have to hear final closings to know MR version summed up

Just out of curiosity for those that think the innocent dupe is not guilty, what part of TLM's testimony are you choosing to believe and what are you not?

I am trying hard to believe that this guy is innocent.

I find some of the posts utterly ridiculous as if his actions are being justified.

In the end the judge said it didnt matter who wielded the hammer, they are to determine if they acted together. The fact of the matter is that they did it together and that is plain and clear.

Abduction yes
Rape yes but most people are unsure
Murder yes

So If there was an abduction, why did it happen? When its a child its usually rape, especially when the child is killed within hours of an abduction. So without the rape why was she killed? Why abduct her in the first place?

Get rid of the drug debt, babysitting theories, tori peeing her pants and him being an innocent dupe and convince me he didnt rape her and I will think about his innocence. Other than that there is nothing that can convince me that he didnt rape her.

Nothing that has been said about his innocence has convinced me enough because I find it utterly ridiculous these theories are even being brought up. JMO

I think they charged him wrong and should have and probably will if found anything but guilty but i think 100% guilty of at least accessory after the fact, cover up and hendering a investigation ( those charges i believe he is guilty and should be charged accordingly )


I believe there is reasonable doubt on the "charges". Charges not so much the crime. He is guilty but i think there is enough doubt to say its possible he did not do some of the things being charged

I find some of the posts utterly ridiculous as if his actions are being justified.

In the end the judge said it didnt matter who wielded the hammer, they are to determine if they acted together. The fact of the matter is that they did it together and that is plain and clear.


Abduction yes
Rape yes but most people are unsure
Murder yes

we have seen much more then the jury has seen as we have sleuthed so much that we are able to see the bigger picture sometimes, So im trying ( doesn't always work ) to look at this case without thinking to much on the rumours and the scenarios others have thrown out as the jury should not be swayed from it.

With the videos we have of MR and TLM of that day and after all show him calm cool and collective and nothing saying "panic or worried" as someone with a kidnapped child in the car. Windows down, HD stop, timmy stop, ATM stop ect.

to me that's a key point, it gives me reason to think that maybe up till a much later time ( could be 30 mins could be 2 hours) MR did not know that Tori was in that car against her will. Now is where i have to speculate as to why she would be in that car and as a parent and like so many others here, a child who is abducted is usually done so for sexual purposes.

BUT i do not see how the crown has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that MR "KNEW" he was in the process of kidnapping Tori when TLM approached the car, I believe that she walked as seen in the video calmly and carefree with Tori in tow willingly at that point. What point Tori knew she was abducted we probably will really never know as we only have TLM words as to what was said to Tori to make her go willing. But the question of kidnapping would have to be "When was it known to MR" before, during or after, What do we have that says he knew he was kidnapping Tori?

Forensic Evidence was inconclusive to rape, the only direct link is the semen mixed with a very tiny spot of Tori's blood on the car door frame BUT there is enough doubt that the semen could have been deposited at a previous time and her blood ended up dropping onto one of the many spots of semen inside that car ( How many spots did they find ?? More then the one from all the sexual encounters with the other woman in the car testified in court)

The blood and semen can be from raping Tori but it could be just as likely that since it was testified that MR had sex on multiple occasions in that car that it is possible that the blood was transferred from another method other then rape ( the bag, TLM hands ect) .

So If there was an abduction, why did it happen? When its a child its usually rape, especially when the child is killed within hours of an abduction. So without the rape why was she killed? Why abduct her in the first place?

I wish we had the answer to why any child is killed, but in the end only the person committing the crime can tell us their state of mind for doing it.

Get rid of the drug debt, babysitting theories, tori peeing her pants and him being an innocent dupe and convince me he didnt rape her and I will think about his innocence. Other than that there is nothing that can convince me that he didnt rape her. Nothing that has been said about his innocence has convinced me enough because I find it utterly ridiculous these theories are even being brought up. JMO

I hear you, and can see why most feel that Tori was raped and I as a parent tend to think the only reason a child is kidnapped is for sexual purposes but this doesn't mean that is the case and the evidence needs to show that it actually happened.

In the end my opinion is he should spend quite a number of years in prison reflecting on his actions that day, I believe he will serve the 25 years at least and I believe that in the end justice will be served for Tori

 

[tmhco]

MR police statement says that the women he was seeing at the time VS disappeared, her daughter was VS friend. Coencidence.

TLM statement says she met VS mother. Coincidence.

There is the link between both of them and the victim.

There is no witness testimony that TLM or MR ever met VS. No reason for LE to suspect them other than the video. Six degrees of separation is hardly a smoking gun. JMO

 

[otto]

I believe the defense is trying to prove that this was not a random kidnapping and that TLM knew VS. If that were the case then the sexually motivated kidnapping was probably not the reason for VS kidnapping.

I rather doubt that. Children that are known to pedophiles are often victims.

 

[Tahorn]

I too have found this website very interesting. I found it during the time that VS was missing and have followed though the beginning of the events - then drifted away for a year or so and picked back up during the trial of MR. Lately I am often left wondering just who is posting on these boards. Clearly none of us are using our real names and identities... but just who are the "players" here leaves me wondering... It seems to me that it could well be that some people here could be very closely connected to the case. Some could even be for example :

1) Crown witnesses.... aka the "lady friends"
2) Friends of family or family
3) Defence team
4) LE
5) "Business" associates in the drug trade

Oh the wondering.....

I can assure you that I am none of the above. If truth be told I grew up in system for I too was an abuse child, and even more so as a teen ... So in the beginning I believed TLM to just another victim of MR. WOW was I wrong ...

 

[tmhco]

not only that AG...I believe that because the whole town was aware of a white jacket person in video anyone that had gone into that school that day wearing a white jacket would have gone to the police to identify themselves so they wouldn't be under any suspicion...and just so someone else did't finger them...remember how they fingered TM & her best friend with a white jacket... so that leads me to believe that the only one who entered that school that day was no other than the infamous TLM...JMO JMO

From what I have gathered the first time anyone other than LE heard about her possibly entering the school was during the grandmother's testimony. Unless i was walking down the road with a little blond girl, I would have no reason to let the police know I was wearing a white jacket. JMO

 

[crazyladi]

I too have found this website very interesting. I found it during the time that VS was missing and have followed though the beginning of the events - then drifted away for a year or so and picked back up during the trial of MR. Lately I am often left wondering just who is posting on these boards. Clearly none of us are using our real names and identities... but just who are the "players" here leaves me wondering... It seems to me that it could well be that some people here could be very closely connected to the case. Some could even be for example :

1) Crown witnesses.... aka the "lady friends"
2) Friends of family or family
3) Defence team
4) LE
5) "Business" associates in the drug trade

Oh the wondering.....

Couldn't agree more

 

[crazyladi]

I guess since i haven't posted most of this week since the defence rested i will give my opinion. I wish the defence would have given a solid reason for the events in MR version but i guess we will have to hear final closings to know MR version summed up



I think they charged him wrong and should have and probably will if found anything but guilty but i think 100% guilty of at least accessory after the fact, cover up and hendering a investigation ( those charges i believe he is guilty and should be charged accordingly )


I believe there is reasonable doubt on the "charges". Charges not so much the crime. He is guilty but i think there is enough doubt to say its possible he did not do some of the things being charged




we have seen much more then the jury has seen as we have sleuthed so much that we are able to see the bigger picture sometimes, So im trying ( doesn't always work ) to look at this case without thinking to much on the rumours and the scenarios others have thrown out as the jury should not be swayed from it.

With the videos we have of MR and TLM of that day and after all show him calm cool and collective and nothing saying "panic or worried" as someone with a kidnapped child in the car. Windows down, HD stop, timmy stop, ATM stop ect.

to me that's a key point, it gives me reason to think that maybe up till a much later time ( could be 30 mins could be 2 hours) MR did not know that Tori was in that car against her will. Now is where i have to speculate as to why she would be in that car and as a parent and like so many others here, a child who is abducted is usually done so for sexual purposes.

BUT i do not see how the crown has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that MR "KNEW" he was in the process of kidnapping Tori when TLM approached the car, I believe that she walked as seen in the video calmly and carefree with Tori in tow willingly at that point. What point Tori knew she was abducted we probably will really never know as we only have TLM words as to what was said to Tori to make her go willing. But the question of kidnapping would have to be "When was it known to MR" before, during or after, What do we have that says he knew he was kidnapping Tori?

Forensic Evidence was inconclusive to rape, the only direct link is the semen mixed with a very tiny spot of Tori's blood on the car door frame BUT there is enough doubt that the semen could have been deposited at a previous time and her blood ended up dropping onto one of the many spots of semen inside that car ( How many spots did they find ?? More then the one from all the sexual encounters with the other woman in the car testified in court)

The blood and semen can be from raping Tori but it could be just as likely that since it was testified that MR had sex on multiple occasions in that car that it is possible that the blood was transferred from another method other then rape ( the bag, TLM hands ect) .



I wish we had the answer to why any child is killed, but in the end only the person committing the crime can tell us their state of mind for doing it.




I hear you, and can see why most feel that Tori was raped and I as a parent tend to think the only reason a child is kidnapped is for sexual purposes but this doesn't mean that is the case and the evidence needs to show that it actually happened.

In the end my opinion is he should spend quite a number of years in prison reflecting on his actions that day, I believe he will serve the 25 years at least and I believe that in the end justice will be served for Tori

Thank you for taking the time out to point out some things to me in which I never thought of. Example the windows being open and the non chalantness of them driving around as if it was nothing.

I appreciate the thought out post that explained your view with logic

 

[antiquegirl]

<modsnip>


I myself am having no trouble believing that MR is not innocent...I think he is guilty of certain parts of this but not all...I would never consider to state that he is innocent of all charges...if that were so than I would question my own sanity and intelligence... BUT I do not think he is guilty of all the charges that he stands charged with...to me that is a big difference...I would be surprised to read that anyone thinks he is totally innocent....JMO JMO JMO

ITA. I have never in the past three years ever claimed that I thought he was "innocent". I consistently maintained before the trial that I have not seen or heard any evidence to point to guilt. There is a difference.

Since the trial began, I am convinced that he was involved and that he helped cover up the crime. I believe that he is a morally bankrupt, sleazy human being who deserves to be locked up for even the slightest complicity in this horrendous affair. However, when I read posts that make no sense to me, where the speculation lacks logic and evidence, I feel compelled to present my own views and opposing speculation for consideration. Views and speculation that may make no sense to some people, but they do to me. It is speculation and theory and opinion, the same as anyone else's.

And until we hear what the next few days brings to light, I will continue to sit on the fence about certain aspects of this crime. At this point, I do not think there is sufficient evidence to convict MTR of sexual assault. I think there is a possibility that the Murder #1 charge may be reduced to second degree. I have no idea what the jury will decide or if there will be a hung jury. But their final decision will be good enough for me no matter what it is.

MOO

 

[flipflop]

Thank you for taking the time out to point out some things to me in which I never thought of. Example the windows being open and the non chalantness of them driving around as if it was nothing.

I appreciate the thought out post that explained your view with logic

I thought of that as well...but then once I heard that the next day after the "horrible murder that MR witnessed"....he was hitting the sheets with yet another gf, carrying on with his "normal" life as if nothing so horrible happened the previous day... This makes me feel that things do not faze him as it would you or I. So, to me, driving around with the windows down, going to Timmies with a kidnapped child in the car etc and all the non chalantness means nothing to me. MOO

Also, most smokers drive with the windows down! JMO

 

[Jezbel]

Thank you for taking the time out to point out some things to me in which I never thought of. Example the windows being open and the non chalantness of them driving around as if it was nothing.

I appreciate the thought out post that explained your view with logic

Weren't the windows open when he was at the gas station after dropping TLM off, before TLM and Tori were in the car?

 

[crazyladi]

ITA. I have never in the past three years ever claimed that I thought he was "innocent". I consistently maintained before the trial that I have not seen or heard any evidence to point to guilt. There is a difference.

Since the trial began, I am convinced that he was involved and that he helped cover up the crime. I believe that he is a morally bankrupt, sleazy human being who deserves to be locked up for even the slightest complicity in this horrendous affair. However, when I read posts that make no sense to me, where the speculation lacks logic and evidence, I feel compelled to present my own views and opposing speculation for consideration. Views and speculation that may make no sense to some people, but they do to me. It is speculation and theory and opinion, the same as anyone else's.

And until we hear what the next few days brings to light, I will continue to sit on the fence about certain aspects of this crime. At this point, I do not think there is sufficient evidence to convict MTR of sexual assault. I think there is a possibility that the Murder #1 charge may be reduced to second degree. I have no idea what the jury will decide or if there will be a hung jury. But their final decision will be good enough for me no matter what it is.

MOO

Thanks for writing this post.

I do have a question for you as I really don't know how court processes, jury etc work.

What if the evidence of the rape is not enough can the jury convict on the possibility that he destroyed the evidence?

 

[crazyladi]

I thought of that as well...but then once I heard that the next day after the "horrible murder that MR witnessed"....he was hitting the sheets with yet another gf, carrying on with his "normal" life as if nothing so horrible happened the previous day... This makes me feel that things do not faze him as it would you or I. So, to me, driving around with the windows down, going to Timmies with a kidnapped child in the car etc and all the non chalantness means nothing to me. MOO

Also, most smokers drive with the windows down! JMO

Yes I never even thought of that. Duh! Great point FF