GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #2

[ToutCa]

ThinkHard, you wanted new info: here's some.

It's about as lame as it gets -- typical LE turf war saber-rattling.

Contrary to reports earlier in the day, Turkish LE issued an official report claiming they and they alone performed the autopsy and analysis of SS.
The claim that at no time was the FBI "officiating" nor were FBI agents "admitted" to the processing point.

My opinion: means nothing, they're bloviating because their feelings got hurt when earlier reports this morning said the FBI was sorta running that show.

Sorry the new info sucks. Very slow news day after the NY Post thing.

 

[bourne]

Could very well be. Though if we consider the manner of death, at least to me it seems more personal then just being about money.

I think someone she was "buddies" with there had very personal feelings for her.

Agree. I think the violence and the murder has to do with the perp(s) feeling that she engaged in adultery and needed to be duly punished for her supposed "crime" via stoning of some form. So it has to be someone who knew she was married. That should limit the suspect pool to peeps she met online and peeps she met in her travels whom she confided about her marital status.

 

[bourne]

Adultery was "officially" illegal (but of course, still often practiced) in Turkey until 1996. It was taken off the books as a crime because women were being punished for it at a far greater proportion than men.

Periodically, since then, conservative governments have tried to get adultery once again declared a crime. This has failed, mostly due to arguments that doing so would jeopardize Turkey's ongoing attempts to join the EU.

As background:

-- Turkey has been a secular and democratic nation-state since the 1920s.
-- Stoning anyone for any reason is illegal. "Honor killings" have been known to take place from time to time in rural areas (I stress, these are ILLEGAL).
-- 77% of Turks in a 2011 survey said they were against stoning adulterers:
LINK

If you want to learn more about what modern Turkey is like, I heartily recommend the amazing novels of Nobel Prize winner Orhan Pamuk or the beautiful films of Nuri Bilge Ceylan. I'm sure ThinkHard, lavy, and Yashim have more recommendations.

The fact that the murderer(s) bashed her face into an unrecognizable form leads me to believe they were punishing her for some perceived crime. I believe they were aware that she was married, and perhaps saw her commingling with men like Taylan as a sign that she's an adulterer.

They could very well have been "stoning" her to death, which as you say, is illegal in Turkey but still practiced by some crazies.

 

[CMac2]

Isn't it more important what SHE said herself rather than MSM _ which is still reporting she spent 3 days in Munich, that her husband was the one waiting at the airport on the 22nd, and that she has an iphone_ and posters here? Look, if she posted on IG that she had to register in person, and I missed that, great, we can add that to our list of facts. But the post I found from her said something different.

To me it is not more important what she said on IG rather than MSM. Not at all. People regularly make the (wise) decision not to put all their personal business out there on social networking sites. IF she chose to cut her trip short for other, more personal reasons, she would have been under no obligation to share those reasons with the entire world on IG.

Neither IG nor MSM are known for containing the Gospel truth. Therefore, all of it are theories and speculation. We have no idea why she cut her trip short- we go with the scenario that makes the most sense to us.

If you prefer to take her words on IG as 100% solid truth, that's FINE- and you're free to form your opinions/thoughts/theories around what you read on that particular site. But your theory isn't any more or less a valid theory than mine is.

 

[ToutCa]

Agree. I think the violence and the murder has to do with the perp(s) feeling that she engaged in adultery and needed to be duly punished for her supposed "crime" via stoning of some form. So it has to be someone who knew she was married. That should limit the suspect pool to peeps she met online and whom she confided about her marital status.

LOL. . .what?!

Adultery is not a crime in Turkey (see upthread), first off.

Second off, what if the criminal was himself an adulterer? By your logic, should he then have stoned himself after stoning SS?

Third off, current LE theory of the crime (which, yes, can and probably will shift) is that a struggle was initiated, they fell to ground, the stone was randomly grasped in the fight and the fatal injuries inflicted. That sounds nothing like a penal stoning of any kind to me. Only sayin...

 

[Kluver13]

I wondered the same. Especially since I saw a pic of her A'dam friend on train back somewhere right after they left each other. Though, there are pics from him waiting in A'dam airport, supposedly with her, then the train back. So maybe he just took a pic of him taking the train back from the A'dam airport to home? So not sure either way if she had company in Munich or if she was solo and what she did there for the day. Murky, but to me not very important. Munich is a rather boring city, especially in terms of criminal activity in comparison to A'dam. I would find Munich much less pointed as a clue to anything.

As was mentioned earlier, Germany and the Netherlands have the two largest Turkish minority populations in Europe. It would make sense for her to travel those places on the advice of Turkish IG friends. There is definitely a growing Turkish community in Munich but I'm not familiar with the Arts/Graffiti scene there. The information blackhole for Germany is worrisome though.

 

[ToutCa]

The fact that the murderer(s) bashed her face into an unrecognizable form leads me to believe they were punishing her for some perceived crime. I believe they were aware that she was married, and perhaps saw her commingling with men like Taylan as a sign that she's an adulterer.

They could very well have been "stoning" her to death, which as you say, is illegal in Turkey but still practiced by some crazies.

LOL. . .so, your theory is that offended citizens stalked her for miles, having seen her in nightclubs or wherever and determined to wreak vigilante vengeance?! I give that a 0 percent chance of having occurred.

The only role that stoning may have played is in the whacked out mind of the perp angry as a patriarchal male upset at the "woman" SS for some reason.

Believe me, there is plenty of sleeping around in Istanbul, and if adulterers really did get stoned, hundreds of stonings would occur there every day. Instead, ZERO do.

 

[looking4answers]

As was mentioned earlier, Germany and the Netherlands have the two largest Turkish minority populations in Europe. It would make sense for her to travel those places on the advice of Turkish IG friends. There is definitely a growing Turkish community in Munich but I'm not familiar with the Arts/Graffiti scene there. The information blackhole for Germany is worrisome though.

That is very interesting. I originally thought "Devon" was Spanish by his looks or something, but knowing this was just his IG name and his real name is "Ammer" this name could be Arab or maybe Turkish? That I do not know. Could be a coincidence, BUT it could be a big part of her connecting to turkish culture, or maybe turkish men? I don't want to suggest her being fond of or having some sort of attraction to these guys, but who knows, I really have no idea but it would explain why all her meets were pretty much men. Though to be clear, it doesn't necessarily mean she had any physical or romantic connection to any of them.

 

[bourne]

LOL. . .what?!

Adultery is not a crime in Turkey (see upthread), first off.

Second off, what if the criminal was himself an adulterer? By your logic, should he then have stoned himself after stoning SS?

Third off, current LE theory of the crime (which, yes, can and probably will shift) is that a struggle was initiated, they fell to ground, the stone was randomly grasped in the fight and the fatal injuries inflicted. That sounds nothing like a penal stoning of any kind to me. Only sayin...

Yes, I read that stoning is currently illegal since 1990's and even posted it as such in other post. Re-read my posts.

Huh? I'm talking only about the perp's perception of Sarai. There's a lot of hypocritical murderers out there. So not sure what your point is.

How do you know what the current LE theory is? Are you LE?

 

[CMac2]

Agree. I think the violence and the murder has to do with the perp(s) feeling that she engaged in adultery and needed to be duly punished for her supposed "crime" via stoning of some form. So it has to be someone who knew she was married. That should limit the suspect pool to peeps she met online and peeps she met in her travels whom she confided about her marital status.

There could be something to this, except I really doubt anyone was punishing her for being an adulterer.

It has been reported in the previous thread that she chose not to share her marital status or the fact that she has children with those online. IF the people she met in Turkey were those who only knew what she shared about herself online, it's possible someone made the assumption she was single (someone earlier said that they'd read she actually told the landlord in Istanbul that she was single). Perhaps she chose not to share her personal family business online because she's a private person and doesn't share those kinds of things for the public to see. Perhaps she was experiencing the single life- again, if reports that she and her husband were seperated are true.

If all that is true, someone may have believed her to be single, only to be rebuffed, and told it was because she's married.

OTH, I have a hard time understanding how anyone would get THAT attached to a woman who is so obviously only visiting for a short period of time. Unless this person was delusional to the point of believing she was going to leave everything back in the states and make a life with him in Turkey instead, I just don't see a romantic suitor getting THAT upset with her about her marital status.

 

[bourne]

LOL. . .so, your theory is that offended citizens stalked her for miles, having seen her in nightclubs or wherever and determined to wreak vigilante vengeance?! I give that a 0 percent chance of having occurred.

The only role that stoning may have played is in the whacked out mind of the perp angry as a patriarchal male upset at the "woman" SS for some reason.

Believe me, there is plenty of sleeping around in Istanbul, and if adulterers really did get stoned, hundreds of stonings would occur there every day. Instead, ZERO do.

You're completely missing the boat here.

Again, re-read my posts. I said it was likely someone she met online who knew she was married and a Turkish local whom she met in person in Istanbul. My #1 suspect is Taylan. Other POIs include the hotel owner, as well as the local tour guides.

So what if there is plenty of people who sleep around in Istanbul? She obviously caught the eyes of someone and that perp did her in.

 

[delal]

Like Toutca, I don't go with this theory. If there were people like that in Istanbul, they would only need to go to certain areas where prostitutes walk the streets at night, they would be far easier targets

Ammer isn't a Turkish name that I am aware of.

 

[ToutCa]

You're completely missing the boat here.

Again, re-read my posts. I said it was likely someone she met online who knew she was married and a Turkish local whom she met in person in Istanbul. My #1 suspect is Taylan. Other POIs include the hotel owner, as well as the local tour guides.

So what if there is plenty of people who sleep around in Istanbul? She obviously caught the eyes of someone and that perp did her in.

Ok, Ok, don't mean to over-react. We agree in general on the most likely perps.

I just don't see penal stoning playing a direct role.

Penal stoning of adulterers is traditionally carried out by village elders or the offended party's family. Don't see any of that happening here.

But I AGREE with you that the use of the stone by the guy is scary -- it could have been resorted to by a very patriarchal man wanting to punish a "shameful" woman who resisted or offended him in some way. I can go that far.

Friends?

 

[ThinkHard]

No we do not. She could have definitely been on the train. Didn't you post some IM's of hers upthread from months ahead of time talking about trying to buy train tickets to or from Amsterdam?

Real info about travel to and from Amsterdam and Munich has been almost a total black hole. It has never been established when and/or what mode of transport it was -- except those airport security photos of her leaving Istanbul on a flight to Amsterdam.

I did but it wasnt months ahead of time...it was 6weeks ago. Which means within 2 weeks of her trip.

What if she flew to Amsterdam, took the train to Munich to see the exhibit w friends, and flew out of Munich. Thus explaining both the Munich and Amsterdam stamps in her passport

 

[bourne]

There could be something to this, except I really doubt anyone was punishing her for being an adulterer.

It has been reported in the previous thread that she chose not to share her marital status or the fact that she has children with those online. IF the people she met in Turkey were those who only knew what she shared about herself online, it's possible someone made the assumption she was single (someone earlier said that they'd read she actually told the landlord in Istanbul that she was single). Perhaps she chose not to share her personal family business online because she's a private person and doesn't share those kinds of things for the public to see. Perhaps she was experiencing the single life- again, if reports that she and her husband were seperated are true.

If all that is true, someone may have believed her to be single, only to be rebuffed, and told it was because she's married.

OTH, I have a hard time understanding how anyone would get THAT attached to a woman who is so obviously only visiting for a short period of time. Unless this person was delusional to the point of believing she was going to leave everything back in the states and make a life with him in Turkey instead, I just don't see a romantic suitor getting THAT upset with her about her marital status.

I see different possibilities:
(1) She met perp online. They conversed over several months. She never mentioned she was married. She informs perp she'll be in Istanbul and wherever. Perp shows up, stalks her, makes advances, she rebuffs and gets killed.
(2) She met perp (Taylan) online. They chat online for several months. She tells him she is married but wants to do some amazing photography before starting an assiduous school session. She meets up with perp in Istanbul. They hang out a few times. Perp thinks they're meant to be, or that she truly does not love her hubby and had decided to vacation there as escape. Things don't work out the way as planned for perp. She tells him she's departing Turkey early. He flies into irrational, jealous rage, and kills her.
(3) She meets perp (he may be a tour guide) in Turkey or elsewhere in her travels. She does not tell him she's married. He stalks her. Finds out where she's staying. Asks questions about her. Sees her heading towards the ruins all by her lonesome. Sees that it's his opportunity to accost and get his way with her without cameras spying. She rebuffs him and he kills her.

Any way we look at it, the perp is definitely a local who knew about her to some extent and had taken what she did/say as some type of offense. Could be about adultery. Could just be simple jealousy and misogyny. These are what I'm leaning towards.

 

[KrysJP]

I've been wanting to say something about this for days.

Why, unlike male victims, do we tend to submit women victims to a kind of all-or-nothing, black-or-white "*advertiser censored*/madonna" standard? The stories are almost all either "SS was a drug-running hard-partier who abandoned her family" OR "SS was a perfect mother and a saint who never drank, danced or had an untoward thought".

This is unrealistic. SS was a beautiful, complex, conflicted human being like any of us. I believe she should be remembered as such, regardless of the particulars of whatever happened to her.

We don't know what she was up to with the men she met on her travels, and we don't know what her primary relationship status was either. Maybe everything was great and they were deeply and exclusively committed to one another. Maybe they had an open relationship. Maybe her husband had cheated on her and she was dealing with that. None of us know.

We can't walk in her shoes because we don't know where she was in her emotional life. We may never know. We must, though, respect her journey, and whatever the truth was of her actions on her voyage through the world, accept her in all her complex contradictions as one of us.

That is my plea.

that was very well said!

 

[ThinkHard]

I wondered the same. Especially since I saw a pic of her A'dam friend on train back somewhere right after they left each other. Though, there are pics from him waiting in A'dam airport, supposedly with her, then the train back. So maybe he just took a pic of him taking the train back from the A'dam airport to home? So not sure either way if she had company in Munich or if she was solo and what she did there for the day. Murky, but to me not very important. Munich is a rather benign city, especially in terms of criminal activity in comparison to A'dam. I would find Munich much less pointed as a clue to anything.

I have no clue of the crime stats in with city. Have never been to Munich. Have been to Amsterdam 3 times but they were very short trips. I know the schipol is very very close to downtown Amsterdam. I had a six hr layover there with a friend, and we managed to hang out in downtown Amsterdam before catching our flight to Paris.

 

[shimz]

Where in her posts on IG was it said that she had to go back to "register" for college? She never said that. She said she ran into a problem with the college she had to deal with in person. It could be ANYthing. A signature, a background check, a meeting with an advisor, a financial aid thing she had to sign, whatever....

I agree. I think it was an issue with her bill/financial aid because it would have been due around that time. From experience, financial sometimes does not come through until the last minute. I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me. She would have been de-registered and it would be difficult to get back into those classes.

I really think its possible that she just wanted to come home and rather than say that (bc it would have cost money and she felt guilty spending on something that wasn't necessary - I don't know) she used school as the main reason. Probably because it was giving her more of a deadline/reason than "I just feel like coming home now".

I don't think she cut it short because she was scared or anything like that. I'm also not convinced Taylan is guilty I think it's possible she blew him off for someone else she either knew or just met. I think it is possible for someone she just met to be that angry to harm her like that. Some men have huge egos and don't take rejection well, whether they know the woman or not.

 

[ToutCa]

OTH, I have a hard time understanding how anyone would get THAT attached to a woman who is so obviously only visiting for a short period of time.

Ah, Cmac2, you just haven't met a man like me!! Give me 2 hours, 2 hours I tell you, and my sweet talk would have you leaving everything to ride off into the sunset with me! The sunset I tell you!! :crazy:

 

[ThinkHard]

Agree. I think the violence and the murder has to do with the perp(s) feeling that she engaged in adultery and needed to be duly punished for her supposed "crime" via stoning of some form. So it has to be someone who knew she was married. That should limit the suspect pool to peeps she met online and peeps she met in her travels whom she confided about her marital status.

With all do respect I have to disagree. I don't think there is anything in this crime that related to stoning at all. In stoning its usually mob mentality and the stones would be thrown at random at the victim. She was bashed repeatedly in the head with the same rock.

Additionally I really don't think anyone she would have been hanging out with, because from what we can tell were close to her age, would really be so aghast at the idea of adultery.