GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #3

[ThinkHard]

I just don't believe the random attack thing. I totally hear everyone's thoughts, and see that its plausible, but I'm also highly suspect that the killer new this scenario was plausible too, and in fact was banking on that as his get out of jail free card.

 

[ToutCa]

Here's my tough question for everyone:

Why was Steven Sierra told by LE not to discuss people she met in Amsterdam or Munich, nor discuss details of the trip?

Innocent precaution or significant indication and why?

 

[ThinkHard]

I got charged $60 or so for two beers at a bar between the Hyatt and Hilton in Istanbul. If I had hired any of the many Ukrainian sex slaves they had available, maybe they would've waived the cost of the drinks, but I was just wanting a brew. This is exactly the type of scam action delal is talking about in the tourist areas of Istanbul.

Haha Efes should cost you about 4 liras

 

[looking4answers]

I know you were generalizing, but the thing is most Christians in turkey as well as other predominantly Muslim countries would not consider themselves catholic. They would consider themselves Coptic Christians.

I was born and raised catholic and I have been to many weddings of Coptic Christians, mostly Armenians living with Turkish roots, or Coptic Christians from Egypt. And they are quite distinctly different from Catholics.

Hate crimes against Armenians, I would think would have more to do with being Armenian and less to do with religion. I'm guessing the women killed who were Armenian were known of Armenian origin because they may have lived in an Armenian neighborhood in Istanbul.

I don't think this has anything to do with Sarai's murder. Additionally I just want to add that hate crimes against Armenians in turkey today are extremely rare. And many many Armenians live very happy and peacefully in turkey. I actually know an old Armenian grandmother who moved to the US far later in life, who insists Istanbul is the best place for Armenians to grow up.

The Armenian Turkish conflict is a very complicated and very often misunderstood part of Turkish history. What happened, is awful, and very very sad, but it also happened before the Turkish Republic was founded, and happened under ottoman rule, many Turks do not identify it as being part of Turkish history, but part of ottoman history. When the republic was founded in 1923, the country, Ataturk specifically, went through great pains to modernize turkey, to move it away from barbaric ottoman images, he changed the alphabet to roman letters, secularized the country, and tried to make it more Europeanized. Turks today tend to focus the roots from this point forward, and regardless of if it is right or not sometimes neglect certain aspects of their countries history, that happened before that. That includes what happened to the Armenians. They do not learn about it in school, so most Turks grow up having no clue about that part of history. (I know that could be considered a whole other issue).

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...ul-racist-attacks-armenian-women-samatya.html

What? Coptic Christians are specifically and only Egyptian. This I can attest to whole heartedly as absolute fact, and nothing but fact.

I do not need any sources to prove this, I just know 1000%, but here for you and anybody else, "Christians in the middle east":

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_Middle_East"]Christianity in the Middle East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[CMac2]

Just for clarity, about Taylans semen. We only know that he supposedly made the claim they had sex after it was discovered DNA was recovered from the scene. (He could have made this claim all along though). It was reported that NO DNA matched anyone yet, checked that included Taylan. So we cannot conclude that Taylans DNA was found on sarai at all. Is that correct or am I mistaken?

That is correct. We cannot conclude Taylan's DNA was found on Sarai. However, I am unclear on how comprehensive these tests were, and whether or not all of the DNA tested was actually preserved well enough (after 10 days in the elements) to allow for comprehensive tests.

There have been statements in the press that LE is still awaiting the results of some of these tests. So it's possible that they don't have all the information they need to be able to say for sure that he is not the perp. We cannot (at least not based on any forensic evidence at this point) say that Taylan's DNA was definitely present on SS.

Initial reports claimed SS had semen on her and DNA under her fingernails. The semen (if that's even true) may have degraded during the 10 days her body was left in the elements. The fingernails maybe contain more intact evidence, since it would have been somewhat protected by her fingernails.

Now that Taylan has an attorney, I wonder what LE's response to the press would be if the tests they have completed have actually come back "inconclusive" as it relates to Taylan. That's not a match... but it wouldn't exclude him either.

LE could be erring on the side of caution, and stating there's been no match, which could definitely be true. But has he been 100% excluded? Maybe he has been, but it wouldn't surprise me if he hadn't.

 

[ThinkHard]

Here's my tough question for everyone:

Why was Steven Sierra told by LE not to discuss people she met in Amsterdam or Munich, nor discuss details of the trip?

Innocent precaution or significant indication and why?

That's a good question. Was it just the Amsterdam Munich people who couldn't discuss or was it any of the connections she had through social media stuff?

 

[ToutCa]

LE could be erring on the side of caution, and stating there's been no match, which could definitely be true. But has he been 100% excluded? Maybe he has been, but it wouldn't surprise me if he hadn't.

That's right -- nothing official has been released on the DNA test.

LE officially says Taylan is "not a suspect".

They have not said he is innocent, nor have they said he has been definitely cleared by evidence.

 

[CMac2]

Here's my tough question for everyone:

Why was Steven Sierra told by LE not to discuss people she met in Amsterdam or Munich, nor discuss details of the trip?

Innocent precaution or significant indication and why?

It could be significant. I think they don't want to scare off any people who could shed light on what SS was doing in Europe, and what she thought of her newfound friends back in Turkey. Think of her ol' buddy Amsterdam Ammer as an example- he seemed more than willing to help out, provide insights, content of the convos he'd had with SS during her stay. The press, unfortunately, slayed the man as a result of his openness (and some might say willingness to help) and now LE probably can't even get in touch with him anymore, let alone get him to continue speaking with them.

I didn't take it so much to mean something significant had occured in Amsterdam and Munich, so much as LE is trying to get valuable information from some of those contacts, and they are getting scared into shutting down the lines of communication b/c of media coverage.

Could mean something totally different, though- and could have something to do with the theory of whether or not she was a mule.

 

[ThinkHard]

What? Coptic Christians are specifically and only Egyptian. This I can attest to whole heartedly as absolute fact, and nothing but fact.

I do not need any sources to prove this, I just know 1000%, but here for you and anybody else, "Christians in the middle east":

Christianity in the Middle East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Study the history of Coptic Christians escaping roman persecution in Cappadocia region of Turkey.

 

[CMac2]

That's right -- nothing official has been released on the DNA test.

LE officially says Taylan is "not a suspect".

They have not said he is innocent, nor have they said he has been definitely cleared by evidence.

Yes. This is something LE does here in the states regularly. Especially if someone has lawyered up. They won't call the person a suspect- and will outright say the person is NOT a suspect- because while they may personally suspect the person, they don't have the physical evidence to back that suspicion up. Sometimes that's because the evidence doesn't exist, and sometimes that's because they don't have the results back of the tests they're waiting on.

 

[Herat]

I have some forensics experience.

Material under the fingernails is removed with a sharp, sterile instrument that is essentially a pointed instrument that scrapes all loose tissue out. The nail is also clipped to catch any material that would be clining to the undersurface of the nail. You just can't get this material off by wiping with alcohol and it would take considerable time to do it completely on all 10 nails.

It can take weeks if you have to exclude multiple suspects. It gets very complicated if there are possibly multiple DNA profiles present on the same victim, of whatever the source (blood, saliva, semen, fingernail scrapings, oral/vaginal/rectal swabs).

The toxicology is also extended testing as anything found has to be accurately identified.

However, usually a pattern is starting to develop by two weeks of intensive work and the comment about narrowing investigation from 51 to 5 people makes some sense. 51 samples of DNA is a huge workload and I'm sure it's consuming massive amounts of LE Lab time and money.

 

[Kluver13]

Here's my tough question for everyone:

Why was Steven Sierra told by LE not to discuss people she met in Amsterdam or Munich, nor discuss details of the trip?

Innocent precaution or significant indication and why?

Possible game theory technique (see prisoner's dilemma). If they feel multiple parties may have knowledge or further still be implicated in the crime. Give an individual an opportunity to cut a deal or implicate someone else in private rather than allowing the parties to collude.

 

[looking4answers]

Right but they were able to track all her gmail correspondences, so they would be able to determine what IP address they came from, thus having her apple IP address....at least I would think...

An IP can change, it is not always "Static", it can also be dynamically assigned, which would mean she could have had more than 1 IP used from her machine depending on what network she accessed and how they assigned her machine an IP. So yes knowing at least 1 account i.e Gmail they can ascertain what IPs where used while on some sessions, but it is possible she did not access Gmail on some days, and accessed other unknown accounts, and was assigned a different IP that day, either by the same network she was using, or a new network. The only fixed thing to someone machine is it's hardware profile, and what is usually stored on a server in relation to the IP is the machines network hardware info. The IP is really just for the network handshake, to say hi I have a key so I can access the internet, but WHO is accessing the network is me "this machine".

 

[Munich]

I have some forensics experience.

Material under the fingernails is removed with a sharp, sterile instrument that is essentially a pointed instrument that scrapes all loose tissue out. The nail is also clipped to catch any material that would be clining to the undersurface of the nail. You just can't get this material off by wiping with alcohol and it would take considerable time to do it completely on all 10 nails.

It can take weeks if you have to exclude multiple suspects. It gets very complicated if there are possibly multiple DNA profiles present on the same victim, of whatever the source (blood, saliva, semen, fingernail scrapings, oral/vaginal/rectal swabs).

The toxicology is also extended testing as anything found has to be accurately identified.

However, usually a pattern is starting to develop by two weeks of intensive work and the comment about narrowing investigation from 51 to 5 people makes some sense. 51 samples of DNA is a huge workload and I'm sure it's consuming massive amounts of LE Lab time and money.

Pardon me for my frankness, but do you know how LE would know if she was raped or not after she'd be in an early state of decomposition? Does anyone know how long after the fact they can tell if a rape occurred, particularly if there was no DNA present? I wouldn't think using a condom would prevent all DNA from being transfered, I clearly have no idea, but coupled with the state of decomposition it sounds difficult to deduce.

Unless there was visible bruising, internal injuries or DNA I don't know how forensics deduce if it was rape or a passionate evening days prior.

Everything I've read thus far points to no rape occurring, just the strange bit of pants down, off, thrown to the side, or slightly torn up.

I'm less curious about both if she was raped or had sex than about the DNA under her finger nails. Of course I wouldn't want her to suffer, but regardless of any of that we this unfortunately ended with a lot of suffering.

 

[Herat]

Maybe she didn't want to see Taylan often. Mystery is important in romance. Or even in hook ups. Maybe she liked exploring on her own with encounters with Taylan that were only occasional on purpose to heighten their romantic or sexual intrigue.

I think it works the opposite way. The impending departure time compresses the experience and makes the desire more intense. It drives lovers together, not apart.

If she only met TaylanK twice, I don't think there was much real hot stuff going on.

 

[ToutCa]

My own feelings here swing on the "22 cleared by DNA" story.

If it's a lie, I say 80% Taylan did it, 15% unknown sub she knew, 5% random

If true, I've swung back to 65% Istanbul pal or smuggling connect, 35% random

In a couple hours, I'll change my mind again!

 

[Kluver13]

Pardon me for my frankness, but do you know how LE would know if she was raped or not after she'd be in an early state of decomposition? Does anyone know how long after the fact they can tell if a rape occurred, particularly if there was no DNA present? I wouldn't think using a condom would prevent all DNA from being transfered, I clearly have no idea, but coupled with the state of decomposition it sounds difficult to deduce.

Unless there was visible bruising, internal injuries or DNA I don't know how forensics deduce if it was rape or a passionate evening days prior.

Everything I've read thus far points to no rape occurring, just the strange bit of pants down, off, thrown to the side, or slightly torn up.

I'm less curious about both if she was raped or had sex than about the DNA under her finger nails. Of course I wouldn't want her to suffer, but regardless of any of that we this unfortunately ended with a lot of suffering.

They would still be able to detect trauma to the vaginal or rectal vault irrespective of condom use after a week. However, if she was indeed raped, Taylan's purported statement that they had sex the evening prior would not rule out a claim of rough sex as contributory. With rape the onous more often lies with the victim to prove the violation rather than the rapist proving innocence.

 

[Herat]

The "22 cleared by DNA" and other such vague information could also be a big smokescreen by LE because some of the DNA found is substantially degraded and has to be tested by alernative methods that aren't available in Turkey. Like maybe these samples have been sent out to other European or US cities for further molecular testing.....

 

[looking4answers]

Study the history of Coptic Christians escaping roman persecution in Cappadocia region of Turkey.

I do not need to study anything, I AM a Coptic Christian. They are identified as Coptic Orthodox, as you would identify the Greek Orthodox Church. The word "Coptic" in and of itself refers to Egyptians. What you are referring to is the "Orthodox" Church itself, the Coptic sect is specifically just Egyptian.

 

[english]

My own thought at the moment is that this was not a random attack. However, I've copied an extract from the travel report of a lone female Finnish traveller to Istanbul last year on her visit to Yedikule.

Suddenly the sun was shining and the minarets of Sultanahmet could clearly be seen far away. The city shone and I followed the curve of the city walls into the distance and counted the tankers “hanging around” the Sea of Marmara with a slight turn of the head. While I sat there a man came up to me, clad in a workmen’s attire, those neon yellow clothes. He stood for a while and then approached me, started talking in Turkish. I shook my head and let him know I didn’t understand. He didn’t speak any English so he continued in Turkish, all the while gesturing with his hands, clearly trying to tell me something. Somehow I got the impression he was talking about the Golden Gate, about Topkapi (the gate) and janissaries, alas the storming of the Constantinople.


I got up as to move on and he followed me, explaining something, gesturing towards the Golden Gate and me to follow him. Okay, I thought, let him show me, that’s where I’m heading anyway. We got down from the wall and he lead me into the tower next to the gate, showed me a room with wooden balustrades and illustrated that someone had been hanged right there (that one evil sultan I presumed, can’t remember his name). And then it happened.


I was so perplexed that I didn’t quite get it at first, so he made himself more clear by showing his penis and performing various notes of thrusts. He especially wanted to make sure I wouldn’t have to really bother, just turning around and, well. You know. That was one of the most terrifying experiences I have ever had in my life. My mind went blank and I just ran, ran and ran, out of that tower all the while expecting to feel him grab me from behind and just rape me then and there, in the darkness of the tower. How f’ng stupid had I been for following him into the tower! Stupid, stupid, stupid! But there was something with him working at the place and his manners that just made me trust him for some reason. I got out in the sunshine and out onto a meadow of yellow flowers, away from the wall, the tower, close to the two other tourists touring the site. Shaking, feeling more violated than I had ever before, not knowing how to move, where to look, what to think. Just trying to breathe.